531 The next that spoke was Cn. Fulvius, avboje Speech was to this Effect. Mr. Prefident, 1751. PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. vernment. even upon WILL admit, that the Hon gentleman has fairly enough ftated the method of arguing with regard to our land foldiers and our feamen; but I am aftonished how he can be aftonished at that method of arguing, if he ever confidered the prefent ftate B of our militia, or the power which the government has over them, or any other landmen in this island: As to thofe landmen that are not lift ed in the militia, I know of no power the king has over them at all, the event of an invasion : As long as they find one to ferve in their ftead in the militia, his majesty cannot compel them either to pro vide themselves with arms, or to breed themselves up to military difcipline. Then as to the militia, no man who can find one to ferve for him, is obliged to ferve in person ; from whence it of courfe happens, that they confist of the lowest and meanest of the people, with refpect to their courage, I believe, as well as in every other respect: Even their officers generally are but low tradef men; because no man can be com pelled to accept of a commiffion in the militia: With regard to their difcipline, there can be but one general county mufter in a year, which is not to laft, I may fay, above two days, for the men must not be kept above four days from their habita tion; and there can be but four particular mufters in a year, and each to continue not above two days at moft, which, I believe, the Hon. gentleman will allow not to be fufficient for making a man master even of the fighting bufinefs of a foldier. And laftly, as to the fervice of the militia, they cannot be drawn out of their county: The lord lieutenant Upon the whole, Sir, to reduce our marine in order to enable us to E keep up numerous land armies, and to purchase foreign auxiliaries, appears to me to be fuch a prepofterous fort of conduct in an island, that I cannot agree to it. At least I can not agree to it, until it has been ful ly and clearly proved, that the keep-F ing up of thefe land armies, and the purchafing of these auxiliaries, are abfolutely neceffary for our immediate fafety; confequently, I muft think, that the confideration of this article of expence should be put off till the other two have been fettled; there-G fore, tho' I am very little master of order, I believe, I may venture to move, and I do move, Sir, That you now leave the chair. t HF, may 582 PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. App. may conduct and employ them, within the place for which he is commiffioned; but he has no power either to conduct or employ them where he has no commiffion. B As to any fcheme for rendering the militia ufeful, I do not remember, Sir, that I ever heard of one, but what upon examination appeared to be impracticable. If I had, I This, Sir, is the prefent ftate of am fure, I should mot heartily have Our military power, fo far as it re. A concurred in its establishment. But lates to thofe landmen that do not indeed, I believe, the thing to be belong to our regular army; and impoffible. To render all your landconfequently, if we had no regular men, or even your militia, equal to army, I believe, every gentleman regular troops, you must give the will grant, that we fhould have no crown fuch a power over the perfons military power at all, at leaft not of men, as the people would think fuch a military power as would be inconfiftent with their liberties: The fufficient to defend us against an in very attempt would raile a more gevafion, or even against a rebellion; neral clamour without doors, and a for those that rebel against an efta- more violent oppofition within, than blished government, always confift was ever raised against the excife of fome of the boldest and most de- fcheme or the convention. As to fperate of the people. The last re- the Swifs, Sir, we know how they bellion fhewed us, that if it had not C come to have fuch a good militia been for the conduct and animating They have always a great number prefence of that brave prince, who of regiments in foreign fervice, and is now at the head of our army, and their foldiers, when they have got a long may he continue to be fo, the little plunder, or have faved a little rebels would probably have been money, obtain their discharge, and more than a match even for our refettle at home, by which means they gular troops. I fhall readily agree D have always their country full, not with the Hon. gentleman, that we only of difciplined, but of veteran have a great many brave landmen in foldiers. This, Sir, is almoft their the kingdom; but they are not of only traffick, the only means they the militia, nor are they under the have of bringing money into their king's command, even against an in- country; but, thank God! we have vafion or rebellion. However, it is no occafion for carrying on fuch a with pleasure I recollect, that fo E traffick, and no gentleman, I bemany of them voluntarily offered his fieve, will advise us to begin it. I majefty their fervice during the last am therefore of opinion, that it will rebellion: They were perfonally be always neceflary for us to keep up brave, as brave, I believe, as any a fmall number of regular troops, men in the world; but, alas ! there not only for our defence against a was hardly one of them that knew fudden attack, but as a foundation how to do his duty in a fquadron Fto build on when we have occafion or battalion, and confequently they for railing an army. And as to that muft have fallen into confufion as of giving foldiers a right to demand foon as they engaged in action, had their difcharge after any number of they met with an enemy that not years fervice, it was fo clearly fhewn, only knew how, but could have when the propofition was made, that taken the proper advantage of their it would put an end to all difcipline want of difcipline; for the great Gin the army, that the houfe, by a advantage of a regular well difcivery great majority, rejected the plined army is, that the general may propofition, rightly judging, that it change his difpofition in a moment, would be better to have no army at without danger of his troops falling all, than an army without difcipline. into confufion. And 1751. PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. 583 And this we ought to be the more C In fhort, Sir, tho' we have a great many brave landmen in the kingdom, yet as the trade of a foldier is not their profeffion, as none of them live by it, except thofe in our army, it will be impoffible to make them learn it, much less practise it, unless you should restore your military tenures; therefore we can never properly be faid to have any military power, but that which confifts in the troops that are kept in the pay and fervice of the government. D Whereas, with refpect to our feamen, feafaring is their trade, it is the trade they live by, therefore they muft learn it, and without practifing it, they cannot live by it; confequently, whether they be in the immediate pay and fervice of the government, or no, they may be justly faid to conftitute our maritime power, because the government may, upon all occafions, either by premiums or preffing, have as many of them as it ftands in need of. than we do, I hope our minifters will take care of it: They know best what numbers of feamen are kept in publick pay by other nations; and when they hear, that any rival nation has increased the number of feamen in the pay of their government, I am periuaded, they will immediately advife his majesty to take an additional number into his pay, which he may do, when necesfity requires, notwithstanding any previous refolution of parliament. I am very unwilling, Sir, to depreciate the power, efpecially the maritime power of this nation; but I am very much afraid, that if we engaged by ourselves alone even in a fea war against France, we should at laft find ourselves over-matched, efpecially as France would probably be affifted by Spain, and, perhaps, by fome other ftates in Europe: This, at leaft, I am fure of, that we could not fupport such a war with fo fmall a revenue as 3,500,000l. which is the utmoft we can well raise yearly, without borrowing; and fome part of that, furely, we should be obliged to employ at home, in providing for our defence at land as well as by fea. For fupporting fuch a war therefore, we should certainly be obliged to borrow large fums E yearly, but the difficulty would be where we could get people to lend ; for if we were generally thought to be over-matched even at fea, no man would lend us money upon publick credit, because by the iffue of fuch a war the nation would, without all doubt, be undone. For this reafon, Sir, had I the honour to be his majesty's chief minifter, I fhould never advife him to enter into a war with France, without a very powerful confederacy upon the continent. It was by this means that we brought France to the very brink of perdition in queen Anne's reign, from which they were faved by the fcandalous treaty of Utrecht. It was by the weakness of our confederacy E 4 F I hope, gentlemen will now fee, Sir, very good reafon for our ar guing upon any question relating to the number of troops to be kept in publick pay, in a very different manner from what we do upon any queftion relating to the number of feamen to be kept in publick pay; G and as to France, or any other nation's getting a fuperiority in maritime power, by keeping a greater number of feamen in publick pay Appendix, 1751: in 584 PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. App. of A in the last war, or rather by the lake- and to contribute all we can towards the prefervation of an union amongst the feveral members thereof? Can the faving of 50, or even 100,000l. a year, be put in the balance with this? Do not we know, that France is every day, by negotiations, by prefents, by the tender of penfions, endeavouring to fow divifion among the members of that powerful body? And fhall we be at no pains or expence to preferve their concord? The Hon. gentleman talked, Sir, of the difficulty of our paying our debts: I fhall grant it is difficult; but I will be bold to fay, that this is the only method by which we can be enabled to pay our debts; for if concord and unanimity be preferved among the feveral princes of the C German empire, the tranquillity we now fo happily enjoy, may probably continue for at least 40 years to come; and the Hon. gentleman has himself allowed, that our debts may be all cleared before that time, or very foon after; but as the natural intereft of money will be gradually diminished by our annual payments, and by the rife of the price of lands, I am perfuaded, that our debts may be all paid long before that time, by means of the finking fund alone, without any extraordinary fcheme for that purpose; for fuch fchemes, I confefs, I am not fond of; becaufe within the memory of many of us, the nation fmarted feverely by fuch an experiment. E We have not for ages paft, Sir, had any experience of a war car- D ried on by this nation alone against France What would be its iffue therefore, God only knows; for no man can fo much as divine. But we have had lately repeated experience of a war carried on by this nation in conjunction with a confederacy againft France; and from that experience we have reafon to judge favourably, and to hope for the beft, from the event of any fuch future war. Surely, then, the wifeft meafure we can purfue, is to cultivate an alliance and friendship with thofe ftates, that have reason to be jealous of the power of France as well as this nation. Is there any ftate in Europe more proper for this purpose than the German empire? Whilst that powerful body is united, and in alliance with us, we may reft fecure, G that France will never give us any caufe of quarrel. Confequently, is it not our intereft to cultivate a friendship with the German empire, F But now, Sir, fuppofe we should be fo unwifely penurious, as to put ourselves to no expence about any foreign measures: And fuppofe, as an Hon. friend of mine has already faid, that we should reduce one half, or even the whole of our army; what could either of these have to do with the prefent queftion? Could both furnish us with a tolerable reafon for putting ourselves to the expence of keeping more feamen in pay than we have occafion for, and more than is kept in pay by any of 1751. PROCEEDINGS of the POLITICAL CLUB, &c. 585 our rivals for maritime power? Could who spoke fome time ago; for he we juftify fuch an unneceffary ex- ufually fpeaks with more ability, and pence in our prefent circumstances? with more candour, than he did Therefore what we may do with re- upon this occafion. As to his abifpect to either of thefe articles, can lity, I really do not know what he be no reason for putting off the con- means by 8000 feamen being fuffifideration or the determination of A cient for all neceffary fervices: In the prefent; and furely, it will be time of peace, and when there are granted, that we ought to provide no pirates at fea, I know of no imfor fome number of feamen. Can mediate fervices that are neceffary. any gentleman fay, he is not now as As to any fuch fervices, we should fully prepared for determining this have no occafion for keeping one question, as he can be at any future fhip in commiffion, or one feaman in time in this feffion? And what chiefly B pay, except thofe under-officers that determines me, and ought, I think, are kept for cleaning and taking care to determine every gentleman to be of the fhips. This cannot therefore for the leffer number, is, that his be the reason for our keeping any majesty may increafe the number the feamen in pay in time of peace: moment he finds it necessary. The true reafon is, that in case of a rupture, or any fudden danger, we Cmay be able to fend a fufficient fquadron to fea without diftreffing our trade; and will he fay, will any gentleman fay, that 8000 feamen are fufficient for this purpose, especially as I find it is propofed to have one half of them always abroad? Sir, D no man can say, that 10,000 is fufficient; and for this reafon I did not approve of the reduction made last year. Then as to his candour, I muft beg pardon to fay, it was not altogether fo candid in him to charge this fide of the houfe with a defign foment a quarrel with France, or with any power whatfoever: We never gave the leaft caufe for charging us with any fuch defign; but we have often declared, and I fufpect, we may often again have occafion to declare, that we are against preferving peace by bafe and mean fubmiffions, becaufe we know it will not do: Experience in a late long administration has clearly fhewn, that it will not do; for in publick as well as private life, the only way to prevent a fecond infult, is to refent the As to the provifion made laft year, Sir, for the coaft of Africa, and the coafts of Nova Scotia, the Hon. gentleman who spoke first against the number of feamen now propofed, may move for an inquiry into it whenever he pleases; for it will appear, that both were fufficiently provided for. There are two men of war now upon the coaft of Africa, at leaft they are there, if they have purfued their orders; and all parts of America, particularly Nova Scotia, were fufficiently provided with ftation fhips or floops. But this, like the other two questions I have E mentioned, has nothing to do with the prefent queftion; therefore, I hope, Sir, it will be put, before the houfe agrees to your leaving the chair. The laft Speech Ihall give you in this Mr. Prefident, IT T may be eafily determined which is the weak fide of the question now before us, from what was faid in favour of it by the Hon. gentleman over against me upon the floor, E of E. F G to first with fpirit. Now, Sir, with regard to what was faid by the Hon. gentleman who fpoke laft, I fhall grant, that by the prefent regulation of the militia, it 4 E 2 can |