gressive Democrat and the Progressive Republican ?" This seemed to be the real point of the matter.

"The main difference is on the tariff, and there it is more theoretical than real. The Progressive Republican calls himself a protectionist, but he is more likely to be with the Democrats than with the Republicans on any given tariff schedule. Progressives, both Republicans and Democrats, agree on the fundamental proposition that the Government should be administered in the interest of the whole people and not in the interest of the exploiting class. The stand-pat Republican, if we can judge him by his vote, believes that society is constructed from the top, and that the captains of industry should be allowed to enrich themselves by law and then distribute among their dependents such part of their wealth as they can spare. It is aristocracy, permeated with plutocracy and glossed over by hypocrisy." His features. told how satisfied he was with the sentence. Do you expect the Progressive Republicans and the radical wing of Democracy to work together in the campaign of 1912? Many politicians would like to know just what is to be done."

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'Progressive Republicans and Progressive Democrats can work together better in legislative bodies than they can in campaigns. Our campaigns are fought necessarily on party lines, and it is difficult for a vast majority of the American voters to forget their instinctive adherence to their party organizations."

"It is a general impression that Democracy is becoming somewhat divided itself. Does it propose to present a more united front than the Republicans when the next campaign opens?"

"The Democratic party, like every other, has its conservative and radical elements." Mr. Bryan was very careful of his words. "Conservatism and radicalism are relative terms. You will find these two elements in every group of any size, and no matter what subject is considered. In the Democratic party the radical element far outnumbers the conservative, but the latter controls nearly all the large newspapers and includes in its numbers most of the Democrats who are engaged in large business enterprises. In the Republican party the conservative element is relatively much stronger than in the Democratic, not only because the large majority of men in 'big business' are Republicans, but also because individual Re

"Yes; but what I want to know is, which element is going to control Democracy in 1912?"

"In each of the last four campaigns there has been a clear-cut conflict between these two elements of Democracy. The radicals won

in 1896, 1900, and 1908. The conservatives won in 1904. I think that the radicals will win this year, though it is too early to speak with certainty."

"What about their leaders?"

Again Mr. Bryan weighed his words cautiously. "Governor Harmon will doubtless have the support of the reactionary or conservative element. The Progressive Democrats are divided among several candidates. I hope, however, that they will be able to agree in each State upon the Progressive who is strongest in that State, and thus prevent a united minority from triumphing over a divided majority. That is the chief task before the Progressive Democrats in the next few months, and I have confidence enough in their wisdom and earnestness to believe that they will get together."

I noticed that he avoided reference to Wilson or Clark. With some curiosity to see how he would take it, I suggested, "They might get together on you."

"In addition to many other reasons why I should not run again for President," said Mr. Bryan, jokingly, a smile lighting up his broad face, "is that, one Republican President having used portions of my platform and another Republican President having used it in part, I am afraid, if I became a candidate again, the Republicans would bring the thirdterm charge against me and say that I had had two terms already."

"Another thing that puzzles the average man is this: What chance have the Progressive Republicans of controlling their party?"

"It

Mr. Bryan did not hold out much encouragement to the Insurgent Republicans. will be much harder for the Progressive Republicans to control the Republican Convention than for the Progressive Democrats to control their Convention," said he, "for the reasons I have stated. However, I would not want to risk a prediction, for two reasons:

"Just now the most important question is whether the railways shall control the appointments of the Inter-State Commerce Commission and United States judges. That is the basic problem which directly concerns the ultimate relation between the railways and the people."

"But can the railways control these officials?"

Yes, they can-by controlling the Presi dent; and to this end the railway interests are concentrating every possible power they possess. There are some other questions likely to come up soon which are of direct interest to the people. One is whether the railways shall be permitted to charge a higher price for an inter-State ticket than for an intra-State ticket covering similar distance. Some do it now, but they ought not. The relation between the express companies and the railways demands attention. Rail. way officials have been profiting by their connection with the express companies that use their roads. There are many questions to arise regarding rates and regulations, but the most important thing is that Inter-State Commerce Commissioners and Federal judges shall not be under obligations to the railways for their appointment."

Mr. Bryan has been taking a hand in sev eral State campaigns on prohibition. I won dered if he intended it to be carried to a wider field. "Is the liquor question likely to cut a figure in the campaign?" I asked. He did not seem hopeful, and there was manifest in his expression some discouragement on the problem in its National relation.

"Two phases of the liquor question may come before Congress, but the liquor lobby is so powerful that I do not know how soon public sentiment may be able to control Congressional action. The effort to prevent the issuing of Federal licenses in 'dry' territory is one of these. The same end, however, might be reached by requiring applicants for Federal licenses to advertise the fact of their appli cations, and serve notice of same on the authorities. An effort is being made, also, to prevent the use of inter-State commerce for the violation of State laws on the liquor question. It seems to me that a State which can be trusted to decide questions of property, questions relating to domestic relations, and questions involving the life of individuals, ought to be able to deal with the liquor question. But some who are quite tenacious of State rights on all other subjects are silent

in the presence of the liquor lobby." It was with a sharp emphasis—this last sentence. Are you an optimist or a pessimist?" I asked. 66 Sometimes I think you the one, and sometimes I think you somewhat disposed to the other. You see so many faults in our Government that it is a little discouraging.' "I am an optimist, but I believe that nothing good comes without a fight; and no man ought to expect others to be more courageous than himself, or more willing to assist every righteous cause.

'Again you are somewhat general, rather than specific," I replied. "What is needed most, from your point of view, toward bettering social and economic conditions ?”

"A greater appreciation of the dignity of labor. To-day the struggle of mankind is to avoid work, to put it upon others; and, as Tolstoy has said, we no sooner shift the burden of labor upon others than we begin to look down upon them. A lack of sympathy with our fellow-men is the cause of most of human injustice and misery."

The schools, too, came in for some comment as he added: "I sometimes think that our educational system is at fault in separating our intellectual progress from our moral advancement. Too often education is sought to enable one to avoid hard work. When this becomes the prevalent idea, education ceases to become a blessing and becomes a curse. The most important thought that can be lodged in each child's mind is that education is to enlarge one's capacity for work, and not to relieve him from the necessity of it." "About the most toil-demanding place is the farm. You evidently believe in the backto-the-farm movement."

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Decidedly. In the cities men accept positions giving small pay because they are. enabled to dress more stylishly and keep their hands clean. They consider this the badge of respectability, and they prefer it to greater pay for manual labor. It is not only labor they avoid, but the physical and often moral development which goes with it. The farm, toil and all, gives the greatest opportunity which is left to us for the development of independence and character and strength. I believe that we shall only do our full duty to ourselves, our countrymen, and posterity when we emphasize the fact that it is the idler, not the toiler, who is a disgrace. In disseminating this idea there is work for us all."

Mr. Bryan is positive in his estimate of politicians, but when he talked of various

leaders of both parties it was with an understanding that he was not to be quoted.

It was characteristic of Mr. Bryan's temperament that he exerted himself to be in Lincoln on the day that President Taft visited that city. He proposed a toast to the President at the luncheon in his honor, in which he paid a courteous tribute to the man who had defeated him. "I ask you," said he, "to rise, fill your glasses with the beverage upon which the Almighty has set his approval, and drink to the health of President Taft, and may God give him wisdom to discharge aright the onerous duties imposed upon him!"

It must have been pleasing to the speaker that a little later in the day Mr. Taft, making an appeal for the support of arbitration treaties with France and Great Britain, gave him credit for making one of the most important suggestions incorporated in the pacts. He said he first heard from Mr. Bryan the scheme of appointing a commission to make a preliminary investigation prior to the actual submission of the question to a board of arbitration, with the further proviso that this investigation should continue for a year, thus giving both nations time to calm down before the final issue was reached. So it was typical of the attitude of Western people toward the Democratic leader that this reference was greeted with cheers.

Mr. Bryan, in discussing National politics, fits every phase to his own theory of government, which he has worked out satisfactorily in his mind, and which, in his view, accounts for all conditions. He is as sure of his position to-day as he was in 1896. The public always likes that sort of public man-though he may not secure a majority of the votes. That Mr. Bryan will be a most influential factor in the coming campaign is evident, as it is that he will use his utmost power to shape his party's policy and nomination in accordance with his views of Democracy. With the activities of a National campaign added to present demands upon his time, it means a year with few resting-places. But he is used to it.

The belated train arrived at 9:15 P.M. He hurried to an automobile, was driven a mile to an audience of ten thousand that had waited an hour and a half for him, and applauded him to the echo through a sixtyminute talk. Then back to the station and aboard another Pullman for a lecture two hundred miles away.

These are busy days for Bryan.

EVERAL years ago, when Leslie M. Shaw, of Iowa, was Secretary of the Treasury, I asked him one day what he purposed doing to outwit some sharp practitioners who were preparing to make trouble for him in handling the National finances. The Secretary was bent over his desk writing a letter.

He suspended his pen, glanced up sidewise without raising his head, and resumed his work as soon as he had seen who it was who had put the question. Then, pausing momentarily between sentences as he wrote, he jerked out a word or two at a time, somewhat in this fashion :

In Iowa-once-a man-went out-to hunt foxes."

Here he halted till he had run over the last written page with his eye, and then went on in the same way:

"He took-along-a brass band." Another pause, longer than its predecessor, enabled the writer not only to scan the next page, but to make a correction or two. When that had been finished to his satisfaction, he plunged into writing another, in the course of which, the corners of his mouth twitching slightly meanwhile, he jerked out successive fragments of his conclusion:

didn't-get-any-foxes!"

That was Mr. Shaw's way of reminding me that when he was trying to smoke out a nest of clever scamps he was not disposed to advertise his plans. It was characteristic of the man that he should not flatly refuse to answer my question, or even advise my sticking to my own business and leaving his to him, but give a quaint switch to the conversation which would answer every purpose, yet preserve my good humor and give me a mor

sel of homely philosophy to chew on at my leisure. When, therefore, he criticises others for needless bluntness in their method of stating a public issue, no one can successfully turn his shafts against himself.

Mr. Shaw is a Vermonter who in his youth went West to grow up with the country. While practicing law in Iowa it occurred to him that, if he could induce the well-to-do people he had left behind to invest their surplus cash where it would do some good to the struggling farmers among whom he had settled, he could benefit both sides. Accordingly, he built up a mortgage and loan business which prospered thriftily, increased his acquaintance and popularity throughout Iowa, and doubtless helped much in making him Governor. Then came the free-silver coinage epidemic. Iowa lay in the very heart of the infected region. Without a moment's hesitancy, Governor Shaw descended from the executive chair, and, taking his political fate in his hand, stumped his adopted State from one end to the other, making an uncompromising fight for the salvation of the public credit. His old farmer friends flocked to

hear him; and his campaign for the honest dollar not only succeeded but attracted Nationwide attention. President Roosevelt made him Secretary of the Treasury. After his retirement from that office he became President of the First Mortgage Guarantee and Trust Company of Philadelphia; and it was in his working-room there that I descended upon him last autumn when his turn came to be put upon The Outlook's witness-stand. This time, as I had given him a little warning and the subject was one of immediate public concern, he did not take refuge in a fox story.

I found him unchanged in appearance or manner by the years that had passed since we last met. His shrewd gray eyes had their old trick of boring holes through mine. On his face the familiar half-smile still came and went as he followed epigram with epigram, each uttered with marked deliberateness, as if it so tickled his own palate that he almost hated to share it with me. His pauses between sentences, designed to give his auditor time to enjoy one fully before bringing out the next, greatly heighten the effect of any argument he is making. The readers of these pages will have to hear him through my ears; but when they have gone far enough into Mr. Shaw's interview to fall into the "swing" of it, whether they agree with all his views or not, they will understand what it is that has made him such a power as a campaigner.

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Governor," said I—everybody calls him Governor," as if the office had been conferred on him in perpetuity—" tell me what's the matter with business."

"What is the matter with business?" he echoed. 66 If you mean what natural conditions have gone wrong, I answer none. Seldom, if ever, has there been a year when, so far as material elements are concerned, everything pointed to greater prosperity. Healthy business, however, depends quite as much on sentiment as on material things. Confidence is the motive power which makes material things combine and recombine for profitable production.

What, then, has paralyzed the activity for which we have a right to look? A number of causes co-operating; but the most powerful of all, I think, is our popular mania for more laws. We read that the children of Israel got into difficulty from worshiping a golden calf while Moses was in the mountain getting the moral law. In recent years the American people have become well-nigh idolaters of statute law while paying none too much attention to the underlying principles of

right and wrong. The incessant cry is for

more laws as distinguished from more law. We are fast making politics an industry. If this continues, will not material industries languish? Men who have heretofore started new ventures, promoted railways, launched big enterprises of any sort, are standing in hesitating attitude while the Legislatures of forty-seven States and the Congress of the United States are grinding out more laws, and then more laws. Think of it! thirty thousand bills introduced at one session of Con

gress, and two hundred new laws passed and approved. At that rate we will have in ten years two thousand more laws than we have now. A very large number of these laws were avowedly to prevent the accumulation of wealth. As I remember, Governor Hughes refused to sign something like five hundred enactments which passed the Legislature of New York, signed two hundred and odd, and urged the passage of more than one hundred others which the Legislature refused."

"As far as Congress is concerned," I suggested, "is not the increased legislative fertility largely due to the almost transformed personnel of that body?"

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Yes," said the Governor, "you are right. A few years have made great changes at Washington. During the depression of the '90's the Republican side of the Senate contained Wolcott, Thurston, Carter, Davis, Allison, Cullom, Spooner, McMillan, Burrows, Hanna, Foraker, Elkins, Platt of New York, Platt of Connecticut, Hoar, Aldrich, Proctor, Hale, Frye. These men, believing in something definable and defensible, and being united in general policy and purpose, afforded a wonderful rallying point of conservatism. They are all dead or retired save one. The Democratic party has also suffered. Vest, Cockrell, Morgan, Pettus, McEnery, Gray, Daniel, and Gorman are no longer in public life, and all but two are dead. Until very recent years there had been found scarcely one man in all the Nation to speak otherwise than in praise of the wisdom of the fathers expressed in our form of representative as distinguished from popular government. To-day there is scarcely a new member of the United States Senate who does not advocate from one to six amendments to the Constitution. Even the law of gravitation does not work well in every instance; yet the all-wise Lawmaker lets it stand. If it were known that an amendment was under consideration, intended to prevent dams from giving way and floods from overwhelming people, would it not affect business? There is scarcely a Constitutional provision on which this Government rests as certainly as creation rests on the law of gravitation that is not made the subject of assault and proposed amendment. If persisted in, will not this affect business ?”

"Has the tariff question, in your judgment, anything to do with the present situation ?"