MR. SPENCER WALPOLE: You are about to move, Sir, the Vote for the British Museum, and there are two points upon which I wish to speak. The first is on the apparent increase in the Estimate. That is not an increase proper, but is an increase entirely, or almost entirely, on account of the removal of collections to the South Kensington Museum, and for the necessary increase of the staff. At the same time, I expect this increase will go on for a few years until the whole of the collections are removed. The other point arises out of an observation which I understand was made earlier in the discussion upon the grants to private local institutions. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council will probably be pleased to hear what I am going to say. Two or three years ago power was given to the Museum to give duplicates to these local institutions. I understand that something has been said this evening to the effect that the Trustees of the Museum neither give duplicates nor lend any part of their collections to these institutions; but the Trustees are forbidden by Parliament from lending their collections, and are bound to preserve all collections in the Museum to all posterity. With regard to duplicates, when we transferred the Natural History Collections, we took care to see what duplicates could be given, and several have been sent to six or seven of the largest institutions in the country. The question of loans is one involving much greater considerations than can be discussed on a mere Vote. Those loans can only be made by Act of Parliament, and then you will have to consider whether you will entirely alter the British Museum as contrasted with the South Kensington Museum, the one being a repository where everything is to be found for the purposes of study; the other being a place more or less fo. the granting of loans. I venture to sug

MR. THOROLD ROGERS said, he fully recognized the force of the remarks which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Walpole); but it was only fair to say that the position taken up by the Trustees of the British Museum in regard to the lending of books and manuscripts was regarded by most foreigners as singularly churlish. They could get the loan of MSS. from Florence, Vienna, Berlin, and other places; and the University of Oxford, with which he was connected, was also willing to lend any rare books or MSS. it possessed. A rigid rule against lending prevailed, however, in the British Museum, and it was an exceedingly churlish rule. He hoped that the Trustees would be induced to make some arrangement by which important MSS. and documents might be lent to other Museums, where they would be copied and kept in perfect safety. He only made these remarks in consequence of what the right hon. Gentleman had said, and also in connection with the fact that a large amount of the treasures of the British Museum was rendered practically useless to the great mass of scholars throughout the world in consequence of the great expense attending a journey to London, that being the only place where there was a possibility of seeing them.

He

MR. MAGNIAC said, he wished to make an appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole), as one of the Trustees of the British Museum, to induce the Museum occasionally to part with some of its MSS., and also to extend the hours during which the building was allowed to remain open. thought the adoption of such a policy would be of material advantage to the country, and conduce to promote the interests of the Museum itself. If the Trustees were of opinion that at present they had no power to do this, a short Act of Parliament might be brought in giving them the power, and he believed it would be hailed with great satisfaction. The library of the Museum was at present rich in the possession of MSS., and only wanted one other collection to be quite perfect. He believed that a good collection of Spanish MSS. was the only absentee, and he trusted

that steps would be taken to remedy the deficiency.

MR. STORY-MASKELYNE desired to say a word in regard to the transfer of the collections from the British Museum to South Kensington. The transfer commenced more than a year ago; and at the time when the last year's Vote was taken the collection of minerals with which he had been connected for a period of 32 years had been already removed to the South Kensington Museum without the slightest accident, and had been arranged in accordance with plans previously made for its exhibition and safe-keeping. He was sorry to think, however, that this was the only collection which had yet been completely transferred. He believed that the Geological Collection had been transferred, but that it had not yet been completely arranged. The Botanical Collection was nearly transferred; but in biology not a single specimen had as yet been removed. He thought it was a great pity, seeing that an important and costly Museum had been built at South Kensington for the reception of these collections, that so long a time should elapse before it was in a position to fulfil the purpose to which it had been dedicated. At present the space to be vacated at the British Museum was still incapable of being devoted to the collections remaining at that locality. It was very much to be regretted, and he wished to know whether any steps to wards completing the transfer were about to be taken? He believed that the keeper of the Department had an idea that he must move all at once or not at all. It seemed to him (Mr. Story Maskelyne), however, that it would very much help the transfer to move part, and that a good deal might be done in arranging such a part in the course of the next few months. He understood that most of the cases were now very nearly ready for the reception of the specimens ; and he hoped to have some assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that the transfer was to be soon begun and be rapidly and properly carried on. He believed that there would be plenty of room in the Museum for General Pitt Rivers' Collection, if it was a collection of a kind desirable to be incorporated with those now at the British Museum-a point on which there seemed to be much question.

Mr. Magniac

SIR JOHN LUBBOCK said, the difficulty in completing the removal of the Natural History Collection arose from the fact that it had been found impossible to induce the late Government to give the money that was required for providing the necessary cases; and it was impossible to remove the various specimens of birds and animals until cases were fitted up for their reception. He thought that hon. Members would hardly wish that some of the specimens should be removed before the whole of them could be transferred. If they were removed bit by bit they were likely to sustain injury. As to the desirability of allowing the precious MSS. possessed by the British Museum to go abroad, although a good deal might be said in favour of it, still there were various considerations of great weight which had hitherto induced those who had looked into the matter to believe that it was better to keep them in England. At any rate, the Trustees could not fairly be blamed for not doing so, because at present they had no power. To lend the MSS. as suggested would be contrary to the law.

Vote agreed to.

MR. BIGGAR thought the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council would not object now to report Progress. There were several other Orders upon the Paper which it would be necessary to dispose of, and the hour was late-nearly 3 o'clock. He did not mean to argue that the next two or three Votes were likely to give rise to much discussion; but they would occupy no larger amount of time on the next Supply night than they would then. He would therefore, suggest to the right hon. Gentleman the propriety of reporting Progress.

MR. MUNDELLA said, he did not propose to take any of the succeeding Votes, except the Vote for Education in Scotland. He would take that Vote, which he believed would not require discussion, and he would then move to report Progress.

(4.) £228,435, to complete the sum for Public Education, Scotland.

MR. J. A. CAMPBELL wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council how Scotland would be affected by the new arrangements in

PATRIOTIC FUND BILL-[Lords.]

(Mr. Secretary Childers.)

[BILL 240.]

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

MR. CHILDERS, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the object of the Bill was to enable the Patriotic Fund Commissioners to give up one of their schools for which they had not sufficient money, and to give the Government more control over the expenditure of the fund. He did not think any question would arise as to the Bill; but in Committee he would give all necessary information.

· Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time," (Mr. Childers.)

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, that perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would inform the House whether, out of the funds they were about to save, they intended to endow any institution for Catholic orphans?

MR. CHILDERS said, the school which had been kept on by the Patriotic Fund Commissioners was a boys' school at Wandsworth.

Motion agreed to.

SUPPLY.-REPORT.

Resolutions [6th August] reported.
Resolutions 1 to 18 agreed to.

(19.) "That a sum, not exceeding £19,883, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, for the Salaries and Incidental Expenses of Temporary Commissions and Committees, including Special Inquiries.”

MR. T. P. O'CONNOR said, that he should like to ask the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) to postpone it. He made this appeal because he intended to bring forward a Motion which, unfortunately, he had not yet put on the Paper. He did not, however, think he should be out of Order in reading it to the House, and the House would then see why he made the appeal. The terms of the Motion were as follows:

"That in view of the increasing importation of foreign and Colonial food-stuffs, and the consequent decrease in the value of agricultural property in Great Britain and Ireland, it is expedient to appoint a Committee of Experts to inquire into and report upon the probable effects of foreign competition on British agriculture, and the rentals of English and Irish land." He was in this position. This was a Motion on going into Committee of Supply; and, looking at the state of Public Business at present, it did not

opportunity to move this Motion. If he did move it, he would undertake not to оссиру the House more than a couple of hours in its discussion. As far as he, personally, was concerned, he should not occupy more than half-an-hour in the statement he should have to make; and, no doubt, it would be very easy for the Government to answer him. If he had not an opportunity of moving the Resolution he believed he could raise the question on this Vote, for in this Vote the cluded. The noble Lord would not lose Agricultural Commissioners were inanything by giving him the opportunity Cavendish) was sure of getting the he sought, because he (Lord Frederick money he required.

at any

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, he saw no possibility of being able other time to bring on the Report of Supply earlier than that. Therefore, it would be useless to postpone the Vote. If the hon. Member wished to bring forward his Motion and make a speech, why did he not do so at once?

Resolution agreed to.

Remaining Resolutions agreed to.

other House, it had been withdrawn.

EARL SPENCER, in reply, said, that this Bill had been given up with extreme regret and under the greatest pressure. He could assure his noble Friend that the Government would consider the matter, and, if possible, re-introduce the Bill early next Session.

ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS REGULATION BILL.-(No. 201.) (The Earl Beauchamp.)

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

EARL BEAUCHAMP, in moving that the Bill be read a second time, said: My Lords, I shall endeavour, as far as possible, to abstain from entering into the merits of what is known as the Ritualistic Question; but I think, that in order to make my Bill clear, it is necessary that I should explain to your Lordships, in as few words as I can, the circumstances attending the passing of Thorogood's Act, in the year 1840, when a Bill was brought into Parliament by Lord John Russell and Lord Morpeth which dealt with the case of Mr. Thorogood. He was then a prisoner in Chelmsford Gaol for not appearing to a citation in an Ecclesiastical Court to show cause why he refused to pay sums of money assessed upon him for church rate. Your Lordships will observe that Mr. Thorogood was not in prison for refusing to pay church rate. I do not complain of it; but he had adopted a course which put that out of the question, and he was in prison solely for refusing to appear to a citation in an Ecclesiastical Court, as is the case with Mr. Green. He had been in prison for a period of 18 months, after a good deal of litigation; and on the 30th July, 1840, Lord John Russell and Lord Morpeth brought in the Bill which afterwards passed into law. Mr. Thorogood was a Quaker, who had conscientious objections to the payment of church rates, and his imprisonment under the circumstances I have mentioned had given rise to a good deal of scandal and of hostile feeling amongst various parties. It therefore appeared to the Government of the day undesirable that he should any longer languish in prison, and the Act was passed which is known by the name of Thorogood's Act,

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