purpose of laying before him what they | I ask whether the hon. and learned believed to be the opinions of the Irish Member for Chatham is in Order in inpeople, how did the Government act? They sent word that no Irish Member sitting below the Gangway on the Opposition side of the House should go with the deputation. MR. GLADSTONE: Who did that? MR. R. POWER said, he would inform the right hon. Gentleman in one minute. Both the hon. Members for Louth asked to be admitted with the deputation, and were told that no Member sitting in the part of the House which he had already designated would be allowed to accompany the deputation. MR. GLADSTONE: By whom? Name, name! MR. R. POWER said, that two hon. Members would get up and give the names. They were told so by the Whips of the Liberal Party. ["Oh!" and Name, name!"] He knew that he for one was most anxious to attend the meeting; but he was refused admittance. [Cries of "By whom?" and "Name, name!"] The Prime Minister asked him to name. They on that side of the House did not get much information from the Treasury Bench; but his hon. Friend the Member for Louth would be quite prepared to state their names. [Cries of "Name, name!"] MR. CALLAN: I shall presently be prepared to name them. "Order!" and" Name!"] MR. GORST: I rise to Order. I wish to know, Sir, whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary is in Order in interrupting by persistent cries of "Name, name?" SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I rise to Order. [Loud cries of "Order!" and continued interruption.] MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. and learned Gentleman having risen to Order, is in possession of the House. SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The hon. and learned Member opposite has risen to Order. He has challenged what I have done, and I rise to Order to appeal to you, Sir, upon the Question which the hon. and learned Member has put. The hon. Member who was addressing the House stated that he and other people had gone personally to the Government-[Cries of" No!"] Allow me to appeal to the recollection of the House. The hon. Member, first of all, vouched-Mr. GORST: Hear, hear! ]Mr. R. Power terrupting me? The hon. Member who was addressing the House first of all vouched the Members for Louth, and being called upon to give the names said, "I myself." [Cries of "No!"] The hon. Member having thus vouched himself as having gone to the room with the deputation-[ Cries of "No, no!"] MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is in possession of the House, and he is entitled to proceed to the end of his address without interruption, so long as he speaks to the point of Order. SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: If I have misunderstood the hon. Member who was addressing the House-if he says he made no such statement, I shall, of course, accept his denial; but at present all I can say is that it was my impression that he did make such a statement, and it was under that impression that I called upon him as having vouched that he went to the room. He MR. R. POWER said, he was very sorry that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had misunderstood him. He had not said that he went himself to the deputation room. He did not believe in accompanying deputations to Englishmen. The facts of the case were that he asked the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan) about the deputation, and that hon. Member told him that he was informed by a Gentleman who they could well suppose possessed the confidence of the Government-one of the Commissioners under the Billnamely, Mr. Litton, that no Irish Gentleman sitting upon his side of the House could accompany the deputation. then observed to the hon. Member for Louth that Mr. Litton, though a thickand-thin supporter of the Government, was perhaps not entitled to say as much as he did say. To that the hon. Member for Louth replied that Lord Richard Grosvenor had informed Mr. Litton that no Irish Member sitting below the Gangway on the Opposition side of the House would be allowed to go with the deputation. He would now return to the question of the Land Bill. The noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) had made one or two observations which he could not refrain from noticing. The noble Lord appealed to the Government on behalf the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. R. Power). He (Mr. Callan) came into this present Parliament belonging to the same Party that he had acted with for 12 years, and it was not until he heard from the reading of the Queen's Speech that coercion was to precede land reform, that he tore up the card securing his place on the Liberal side, and changed to the other side of the House. MR. SPEAKER reminded the hon. Member that he was travelling beyond the limits of personal explanation, and that the Question before the House had nothing to do with the tearing up of his card. of the landlord class, saying-"The | MR. CALLAN said, he regretted that landlords have always supported you in his name had been introduced, but he Ireland, and yet now at the eleventh must detain the House a few minutes hour you throw them over." Well, he while he offered a personal explanaagreed with the noble Lord in every tion. The conversation that had been reword which he had spoken. The land-ferred to took place six months ago, and lords had been the support of the Go- it had been accurately reproduced by vernment and the House. They had supported them in connection with every miserable, petty, or tyrannical Act which had been passed in reference to Ireland, and they had carried out the laws passed by Englishmen in every particular, on the Bench and in other Offices. He was not sorry that the landlords seemed now to be inclined to refuse to act any longer as a buffer between the Government and the people of Ireland. He was not, | however, so prejudiced as to say that the Bill now before the House contained nothing good. He admitted frankly that it was the best which the English Government could pass at the present time. But it had always been the misfortune of Ireland to suffer on account MR. CALLAN proceeded to say that of the Party tactics of English politi- he was in 1870 the secretary of a meetcians. If the Government were anxious ing of the Irish Members to consider the to do justice to Ireland, as he believed Land Bill of that year, and when he the right hon. Gentleman at the head heard that the Land Question was again of the Government was, they could not to be dealt with, he thought a similar carry with them the great phalanx be- meeting of Irish Members would be hind them, consisting of the Indepen- held. Upon learning, however, that dent Liberals. The worst point of all arrangements had been made for a depuwas that there was no real Radical tation, he said to Mr. Litton, who apParty in the House. The one thing peared to have the matter in charge, capable of destroying the Radical Party that he should like to accompany the in this country was the Birmingham deputation, and Mr. Litton told him that caucus. [Cries of "Question!"] He it was the express wish of the Prime knew very well that hon. Members be- Minister that no Members from the low the Gangway opposite would cry opposite side should go, that the right "Question! at that statement, for to hon. Gentleman entertained a strong them this was a very disagreeable sub-personal objection to any Member sitject to talk about. His opposition to the ting in Opposition going with the depuLand Bill originated in the views which tation upon this matter. He (Mr. he entertained with regard to the 26th Callan) expressed doubt as to that, and clause. He had seen in that clause a Mr. Litton said they were so careful fixed purpose to depopulate Ireland about those who were to go on the de-["No, no!"]-and though hon. Mem-putation, that a list had to be submitted bers opposite cried "No!" they would to the chief Government Whip (Lord find that the people of Ireland had Richard Grosvenor). He was told by viewed the clause in the same light. his Colleague that a similar intimation But his Colleagues had virtually killed had been conveyed to him. that clause, and had forced the Government to reduce their original estimate of the expenditure under its provisions to the comparatively small sum of £200,000. He should not speak his honest convictions if he did not declare that this Bill could not be regarded as a final settlement. MR. GLADSTONE said, he rose to request the favour of being allowed to make a personal explanation, as his name had been introduced. He could promise it should not be one-twentieth part of the length of that of the hon. Member. So far as he was concerned― he could not say anything about Mr. Litton there was not the slightest complishing all he deemed desirable in the interests of the country. He (Mr. Blake) spoke with perfect independence when he said that the Bill did not go as far as he could wish; and he agreed with the hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. R. Power) that it would not be considered a final settlement of the Irish Land Question, as it was not unlikely that after a trial some defects would have to be remedied, and therefore it would be premature to declare the Bill, good as it undoubtedly was, a finality. In its present form it would confer much benefit on the Irish people if properly carried out. But he believed that the Prime Minister had gone as far as he could, and, as an Irish Member, he offered the right hon. Gentleman his most sincere and grateful thanks. LORD RICHARD GROSVENOR said, he was sorry to be obliged to trouble the House for a few moments with what seemed to be required from himnamely, a personal explanation of his course in this matter. He could assure the House that this was the first time he had heard anything of the strongly expressed opinion and wish of the Prime Minister. He did not believe that he ever expressed such a wish on the part of the Prime Minister to Mr. Litton, and he very much regretted that the hon. and learned Member for Tyrone (Mr. Litton) was not then present. He could assure the House that this was the first he had heard of it; and he was perfectly certain that the House would believe him that he could not possibly have invented such a statement, as it would not have been the perfect truth. MR. E. COLLINS said, he was unwilling to intervene in this conversation; but he considered it only fair and just to those who were involved in this accusation to state the facts in reference to the deputation in question. He was a member of the deputation. It originated from a meeting, not of the Irish Members, but of the Liberal Party interested in the passing of a Land Bill for Ireland. MR. SPEAKER: After the personal explanations that have been made, I think I ought to point out to the House that the Question before it is the third reading of the Land Bill. MR. BLAKE said, he should be sorry if the closing words on this Bill on the part of Irish Members should appear to be those of ungraciousness towards the Prime Minister, to whom the Irish people owed so much for his efforts to benefit them by this measure. While he (Mr. Blake) believed that no man had the interest and welfare of Ireland more at heart than the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy), he thought that on the present occasion the hon. Member had shown more indiscretion than, he was sure, the hon. Member on reflection would wish to show. The hon. Member for Wexford was young, earnest, and impulsive, and the latter quality, as on the present occasion, sometimes led him into not making due allowance for the difficulties of the Government in not acMr. Gladstone Question put. The House divided: AYES. Ayes 220; Chambers, Sir T. Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Collings, J. Colman, J. J. Colthurst, Col. D. la T. Corbet, W. J. Corbett, J. Collins, E. Corry, J. P. Acland, Sir T. D. H. Carbutt, E. H. W. H. P. Cowper, hon. H. F. Craig, W. Y. Creyke, R. Cross, J. K. Daly, J. Cunliffe, Sir R. A. Davey, H. Nolan, Major J. P. O'Beirne, Major F. O'Brien, Sir P. O'Conor, D. M. Ross, C. C. Schreiber, C. O'Gorman Mahon, Col. The O'Kelly, J. Bill passed. R. Otway, A. Scott, M. D. Tyler, Sir H. W. Warton, C. N. Whitley, E. TELLERS. Elcho, Lord Hay, rt. hon. Admiral Sir J. C. D. Harcourt, rt. hon. Sir W. G. V. V. Hardcastle, J. A. Hartington, Marq. of O'Shaughnessy, Paget, T. T. Peddie, J. D. Hastings, G. W. Hayter, Sir A. D. Palmer, G. Palmer, J. H. Parker, C. S. Henderson, F. Pease, A. Playfair, rt. hon. L. Price, Sir R. G. C. (Nottingham) TELLERS. Grosvenor, Lord R. Kensington, Lord VOL. CCLXIV. [THIRD SERIES.] SUPPLY.-COMMITTEE. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair." IRISH FISHERIES.-RESOLUTION. MR. BLAKE, in rising to call attention to the depressed condition of the sea fisheries of Ireland; and to move "That it is the opinion of this House that it is the duty of the Government to take measures to render the Irish Fisheries more available as a means of affording increased food and employment," said, that he considered he rose under very adverse circumstances, as the House had been, until that moment, engaged with another very important matter. His object was to show that great benefits had been conferred on the fishermen by the aid already afforded by the Reproductive Fund, and which afforded a precedent for similar assistance being given to the eight maritime counties without loans. He might also mention that enormous benefits had been conferred on the coast population of the county of Cork by the benevolence of the Baroness Burdett-Coutts, who, with her characteristic generosity, had aided many fishermen between Baltimore and Cape Clear to follow their occupation. It was of the highest importance to develop such a fertile source of food as the sea fisheries of Ireland. At present they did not produce more than £700,000 a-year; but if they were properly developed they might produce £2,000,000 or £3,000,000, materially increase, and, at the same time, cheapen the food of the people, and serve as an admirable nursery both of the Royal Navy and of the Mercantile Marine. Every Fishery Company had failed because of the tempestuous character of the coast. It was only at certain periods when fishermen H fish on the Scotch Coast, but were accustomed, in the Spring of the year, to sail for the Irish Coast, where they reaped a rich harvest. He thought, therefore, that their Irish friends might do more themselves to develop their own fisheries; and he also thought the Government would spend money well that would in any degree develop that industry. He had great pleasure in seconding the Resolution. Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "it is the opinion of this House that it is the duty of the Government to take measures to render the Irish Fisheries more available as a means of affording increased food and employment,”—(Mr. Blake,) could safely venture out to sea, and the MR. W. HOLMS said, he thought it would be well to encourage the development of the industrial resources of Ireland, and the fisheries among them. Apart from industrial considerations, it was a matter of the greatest importance that every encouragement should be given to rearing a hardy race of fishermen, who, after all, were the very best men for recruiting the Navy. As a Scotchman, he ventured to remark, in reference to Irish fisheries, that he thought Irishmen, with the power of fishing off their own coast, might develop to a greater extent than they had done their own fisheries. He lived for many years near a fishing village on the Ayrshire Coast, where, year after year, he observed a small fleet of fishing vessels laid up for the winter. He found that, for the most part, these vessels did not Mr Blake Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." MR. W. E. FORSTER, said, that, notwithstanding the pressure of other Business, the question of the Irish fisheries had not been neglected during the year. A considerable sum had been spent on the erection of piers, chiefly in the Western Counties, where the people were very poor, and where there was a vast congestion of the people. Although he did not think a population, partly agricultural and partly fishers, could compete with those who devoted their whole energies to fishing, still that was no reason why they should not do what they could to develop the fisheries of a country whose coasts abounded with fish. Aided by a munificent donation from Canada, some £60,000, including £45,000 from the Exchequer, had been appropriated for the erection of 30 piers, mostly in the Western Counties. As to the reproductive loan to Irish fishermen, he wished the fact could be impressed on Parliament and the country that these loans had been granted to very poor people, yet they had been paid with the greatest possible regularity, only £900 being overdue out of £30,000. SIR JOSEPH M'KENNA said, he hoped that the attention of the Government would be given to the condition of the South, as well as the West Coast of Ireland. All efforts, however, to improve the fisheries of Ireland would be ineffective unless the Government turned its attention to the charges made by Irish railways for the carriage of |