crime and a profounder reverence for law? My Lords, I had hitherto supposed it was the boast and pride of England to represent in Europe what our Protestant kinsmen represent in Ireland -the ascendancy of a Protestant few in the midst of a Roman Catholic manyan ascendancy derived from that energetic independence of character which it is the tendency of your present legislation to destroy. My Lords, you may call this Protestant ascendancy, and think you are giving it a bad name. But history identifies it with English ascendancy. You cannot destroy the one and preserve the other. And it is against this English ascendancy that you, an English Cabinet, are banded together to make war. My Lords, in such a war I, for one, will never enlist. I am convinced that the principle on which you wage it will prove fatal for Ireland, as it has already proved calamitous and humiliating for England. But behind and beyond this miserable policy I recognize disasters worse than civil warworse even than separation. The power of England has survived, and may again survive, many an Irish rebellion. But let England once prove false to that traditional integrity of national character which refuses to bully or to bubble a man out of what is honestly and legally his own, and England will deservedly perish, under the scorn of a civilization whose paramount interest she has betrayed. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, that before being asked to vote for the Bill their Lordships ought to be told whether the Government would, for the future, discountenance the continuance of those outrages which Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Bright had directly encouraged. EARL SPENCER: I regret to have to rise at so late a period of the evening, and if I trespass some short time upon your Lordships' attention, you will feel, I am sure, that I do so only on account of the vast importance of the question before us. I do not propose to follow the noble Earl who has just addressed us into the variety of subjects upon which he has touched. I will not say anything about ascendancy in Ireland, the restoration of the Protestant Church there, or the confiscations of past times. All those subjects have left their mark in Ireland. They have left, I am afraid, a great deal of ill-feeling and soreness, The Earl of Lytton But from which a great many of the difficulties with which we have now to deal spring. I should like to refer without further delay to the speech of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne). My noble Friend referred in rather a sneering way to the Purchase Clause in the Bill which is now before us, saying that it was intended to mark the dislike felt by the Government for large proprietors in Ireland. Now, I wish to say distinctly that Her Majesty's Government do not look with indifference upon this part of the Bill, or, to use the phrase of another noble Marquess, do they look upon it as merely ornamentation. They conceive that it is one of the most important means of restoring peace, quiet, and contentment to Ireland. If the Purchase Clauses of the Land Act of 1870 can be carried out in a more perfect and general manner, and if we can turn a large number of occupiers of land into proprietors, we shall be much more likely to gain recruits in the cause of law and order than by pouring into Ireland countless soldiery and constabulary. It was in the Act of 1870 that the principle contained in the Purchase Clause of this Bill was first introduced; but the clauses in that Act were not efficacious. Her Majesty's Government hope to improve very much the working of this clause. One of the defects of the Act of 1870 was that there was no especial provision for a body of men to carry out this important work. In the Bill now before your Lordships the Land Commission are especially directed to carry out this measure. It was found in practice that the purchase of their holdings by tenants was exceedingly difficult, because it was conducted in the Landed Estates Court, and also for this reason —that it constantly happened that part of the tenants were able to pay and another part unable, so that the estate was left in a disjointed state. But the Commission will be empowered to buy estates themselves, provided a sufficient number of tenants can be found ready to purchase. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) said, with regard to this part of the Bill, that the Government did not lay great stress on it. Certainly the measure has not been in any way diminished since it was introduced into the other House with respect to these clauses. We have had tonight reference to the different systems of management of estates in England an average, 61d. per acre per annum in improvements. In some cases- -about one-seventh of the whole-the whole of the improvements have been effected by the landlord; in others by the tenant alone; and in the rest, partly by the landlord and partly by the tenant. I may say that the rent per acre of this large territory is about 11s. 4d., so that the average cost of the landlord's improvements is about 4 per cent on the rental; whereas in England, on wellmanaged estates, the annual expenditure of the landlord on improvements varies from 10 to 25 per cent on the annual rental. It may be true that the Irish tenants have not improved their holdings as much as they might have done; but what improvements have been made have been done, at least to a large extent, by the tenants. This constitutes and creates that intense love of his holding which is the peculiar characteristic of the Irish people. It also creates that confusion between the interests of the landlord and the tenant which very often leave matters in such a tangled skein that it is almost impossible to unravel it, and to separate the interests of the landlord from those of the tenant. This is one of the reasons why it is so necessary to deal with this subject of rent. There has arisen in Ireland a peculiar custom, to which frequent reference has been made. I refer to the Ulster tenant right. Now, my Lords, I need not dwell upon all the principles of that custom, such as the power of the landlord to raise the rent, the veto which he has upon the incoming tenant, or the security of the tenant provided that he pays his rent. These highly important matters will, no doubt, be discussed in Committee. They are more or less incidents common to English tenancies; but I wish to notice an incident which specially marks the Ulster Custom-namely, the right of the tenant to sell the goodwill of his holding. Now, as far as this part of the custom goes, when exercised for the purpose of com and Ireland respectively. I will dwell for a very few minutes on that part of the subject, because these differences are, to a great extent, the cause of the difficulties which have led to the necessity of dealing with the Land Question in Ireland. I do not mean to cast any blame upon the landlords of Ireland. The difference arises from the very necessity of the case. In England we have a system of large farms, where the owner finds almost all the capital necessary to work the farm. In Ireland we have a system of small farms, where it would be perfectly impossible for the landlord to do this work, Why, in Ireland there are 274,000 tenants holding under 15 acres. In Galway, Kerry, and the adjoining counties 113,000 out of 139,000 holdings are under £10 valuation. How would it be possible for the landlords dealing with these small holdings to find all the capital necessary for the equipment of these farms? My noble Friend the noble Duke behind me (the Duke of Argyll), in a short debate which took place a few nights ago on cottier tenants, quoted the case of an estate where there were nearly 4,000 tenants paying £4 rent and under. Well, my Lords, how would it be possible for the landlord to make the permanent improvement on holdings? In the case quoted by my noble Friend the landlord would be ruined if he attempted such a thing without charging interest on his outlay, and the tenant would be totally unable to pay such a large addition to his rental. The fact is, that rent represents different things in the two countries. Speaking roughly, in England it represents the value of the land and the interest of the landlord's capital spent on the land. In Ireland it only represents the letting value of the land. My noble Friend opposite speaks of the landlords' improvements as being considerable. But I can quote a very high authority that of Mr. Kavanagh-to support what I am now saying. But I will more particularly refer to the Report of an influential body of men in Dub-pensation for improvements made by the Îin-the Landlords' Committee- who have circulated a statement on this subject. What do we find in the Report of this Committee? They made a survey over a great part of Ireland-over more than half that country; but that half may be taken as typical of the whole. From that Report we find that during 40 years the landlords have spent, on tenant himself, I can conceive that there can be no objection whatever to it; but when the price given goes beyond the improvements, I admit that in theory I have always seen great objection and faults in the system. The price of the tenant right beyond actual just compensation for work done and money expended seems to be money unnecessarily [First Night.] laid out by the tenant and money which would be useful to him for improvements or other investments. So far, my Lords, in theory I agree with those who are against the Ulster Custom; but I am bound to say that in practice the custom has worked well and is agreeable to Irish ideas. The origin of the custom is matter of dispute: but, in my opinion, it is probable that it arose in consequence of the difficulties there were in settling about the improvements made by the tenant on the farm. The tenant made improvements, and this custom in the outset sprang up from an endeavour to compensate him. I am sure the noble Duke behind me would not object to that. In practice, the Ulster Custom has worked exceedingly well. Ulster is the only part of Ireland in which anything like prosperity prevails among people. Although there have been more evictions in Ulster than elsewhere, the This evidence showed that the Ulster tenant right has not lowered the value of estates in that part of the country. I could quote Returns as to the sales of property throughout Ireland since it has been comparatively free from the show that the prices of land sold in 1870 to prove this. These Returns agrarian crime which usually accompanies them in other parts of Ireland. This is the Landed Estates Court during three evidence of the smooth working of ten-years ending October 31, 1874, were ant right in Ulster. Changes of tenancy higher in Ulster than in any other part take place, owing to the existence of of Ireland. I am quite aware that tenant right, quietly and without the there may be considerable difference violence which accompanies such changes of opinion as to whether the Ulster elsewhere. Last year the proportion of tenant right custom is the outcome of crimes to convictions was two to one in the prosperity of Ulster, or the prosUlster, and out of Ulster, three to one. perity of Ulster the outcome of the The changes the Bill introduces are Ulster tenant right. I will not give founded on strict analogy to the Ulster any dogmatic opinion on the subject; Custom, which will be reproduced more but I am justified in saying that there or less in other parts of the country. is no evidence that the landlords are It is said that certain consequences will driven away, that crime is greater, follow; but do they exist in Ulster ? or land less valuable where the Ulster Are the amenities of ownership fewer tenant right has existed for so many in Ulster than elsewhere? No evi- years past. Therefore, I think that all dence of that is to be found. The pro-Custom in practice are not well founded. the fears with regard to this Ulster portions of resident to non-resident proprietors are in Ulster as five to one, in Leinster three and a-half to one, in Munster three to one, and in Connaught four to one; so that in Ulster there are more resident proprietors than in other parts. These facts are worthy of our consideration, when we are told so much against the extension of tenant right to the rest of Ireland. We have heard a good deal about the confiscation of the landlord's 's property. It has been said that rent will be diminished, and the landlord deprived of what he ought to receive. But in Ulster, notwithstanding tenant right, the price of land has been higher than in any other parts of the Earl Spencer The noble Marquess opposite used some very strong expressions to-night, and told us that the Bill was the result of fear. But the noble Marquess himself answered that accusation against Her Majesty's Government, for he immediately afterwards admitted that he thought there was reason for legislation, as it had been always expected. I would like to quote an opinion which the opposite Benches will treat with considerable respect, the opinion of Master Fitzgibbon, who took the greatest interest in the Land Question, was connected through his official position with many large estates, and wrote several works on the subject. He said this-the cor- that the unjust raising of rent is much roding social disease of Ireland from more common. The Bill itself has been which all others radicate is the mutual described so often to-night that I need distrust of landlords and tenants. I am not dwell upon its provisions at any really afraid that this distrust is at the length. In some quarters too much bottom of the necessity for all the legisla- stress has been laid on the power of the tion that has taken place at various times. Court; but it should be remembered We find it dwelt upon by the Devon Com- that application to the Court can only mission. I need not quote again what has be made in the case of present tenancies, been already quoted to-night, the passage and that in many instances the tenants where the Devon Commission points on well-managed estates will not wish to out the grave position of affairs in Ire- go to the Court. As for the right of land, owing to the great distrust which free sale, which is taken from the Ulster existed between landlord and tenant. Custom, it is in conformity with the That cannot be illustrated more forcibly wishes and habits of the Irish people, than was done by the noble Duke (the and is, in fact, the only mode in which Duke of Argyll) the other night, when they understand a payment for the imhe referred to the conflicting evidence provements they have made in their holdgiven before the Bessborough Commis-ings. The Court about to be established sion. There we have landlord and tenant directly contradicting each other. Is not that a sign how much this mutual distrust exists in Ireland ? Then we have the evidence of the unhappy agitation that has been going on for the last year or so. Would any of your Lordships believe that the Land League could exercise its baneful influence if there had been no sympathy among the tenants and no want of confidence in the landlords? I think it is childish to suppose that such an agitation could be carried on successfully without some grave cause of discontent. We have heard repeatedly of the various Acts to remedy this discontent; we had the Act of 1860, and the more recent legislation in 1870, which last attempt, as most persons admit, has conferred great benefits on the Irish tenantry. It legalized the Ulster tenant right, it checked capricious evictions, and gave the tenants compensation in certain cases; but its principles were not carried out to their logical conclusions. There was the famous clause by which the tenant obtained compensation whenever he was evicted, except for non-payment of rent; and what happened? It was not foreseen or intended, but a quasi-proprietary right was given to the tenant by that Act. The tenant, however, found that he lost all the benefits of the Act when the season was so bad that by no fault of his own he was unable to pay his rent, and he naturally thought himself hardly treated. It has been said that there are always quoted the cases of about half-a-dozen apocryphal landlords who unjustly raised their rent; but I think the Reports prove VOL. CCLXIV. [THIRD SERIES.] will be a court of conciliation between the tenant and the landlord. It is for the purpose of bringing about a peaceful and satisfactory solution of the question that we have for a time to resort to this exceptional mode of proceeding. I need not dwell at any length on other portions of the Bill. Some noble Lords have spoken as if the Emigration Clause was a mere farce, and not intended to have any effect. I believe the clause, which is a voluntary clause, may be of vast importance in relieving the overpopulated and poverty-stricken parts of the country. The tenant's right of selling his interest will also contribute to the same result. From Ulster, where the right already exists, there is often more emigration than from elsewhere. With regard to the clause relating to waste lands, I cannot say that I look very hopefully upon its provisions, for I believe that capital will always flow to the channel in which it is wanted; and if there had been any possibility of reclaiming waste land in Ireland to any large extent, I believe some of the surplus capital of this country would already have found an outlet in that direction. Others, however, held different views, and, consequently, we have introduced into the Bill a clause facilitating loans to public bodies for purposes of reclamation. Before I conclude I wish to say one word on a point about which we have heard a great deal. It is constantly said that compensation ought to be given to the landlords. But the Government deny that there will be any confiscation of the landlords' property, and therefore they cannot assent to the [First Night.] N principle of compensation. When we are told of the serious responsibilities which we have undertaken in introducing this measure, it would sometimes seem as if noble Lords had forgotten the condition in which various parts of Ireland are. I will only call your Lord HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, 1st August, 1881. ships' attention to one very painful sign MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee -Resolutions [July 29] reported. -- PUBLIC BILLS Resolutions in Committee. Considered as amended-Third Reading-Sum- of the sad state of that country. I allude to the sympathy that is shown with lawlessness and the prevailing antipathy to law. In many parts of the country the people have a law of their own, which they prefer to the law of the country. What is the result? That odium justly due to crime is thus perverted into sympathy with the criminal, and duty to society is overborne by what is considered as a sacred obligation to screen a fellow-sufferer from a law which they neither value nor respect. I have shown that there is need for a reform of the landlord. There is, therefore, some justice in the views of these farmers. If these views are not just, no Government ought to give way to them. If they are, I think we ought to do our utmost to reconcile the people of Ireland to the laws and excite their sympathy instead of their antipathy. My Lords, this Bill is exceptional in its character, but it is not more exceptional than the condition of Ireland. The measure is a strong one; if it were weaker it would have no effect in Ireland. It is necessary to reconcile landlord and tenant in Ireland; it is necessary to create a permanent, LAW AND POLICE-FLOWER SELLERS sound, and cordial good will between the Irish and the English nations; it is necessary if we are to maintain the Union between the two countries by peaceable means, and not by armed force. I sincerely trust that your Lordships will not only give a second reading to the Bill, but send it to the other House of Parliament without any material alteration. Moved, "That the Debate be now adjourned."-(The Duke of Argyll.) Motion agreed to. Third Reading-Public Works Loans* [211], * QUESTIONS. IN ISLINGTON. MR. CARINGTON asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the case of two poor women who were charged by the police at Islington Police Court on the 20th of July 1881 and fined sixpence and four shillings costs for causing an obstruction by selling flowers in High Street, Islington; whether it is true that women have been in the habit of selling flowers at that same spot for the last twenty-five years, and that the women did not occupy any part of the Debate further adjourned till To- pavement, but only stood in the gutter; morrow. SHOP HOURS REGULATION BILL [H.L.] A Bill to regulate the hours of labour in shops and warehouses-Was presented by The Earl STANHOPE; read 1a. (No. 191.) House adjourned at half past One Earl Spencer o clock, till To-morrow, half whether he will inform the House why, if any obstruction really exists, the tradesmen of that locality whose goods are displayed on the pavement, thereby causing a great obstruction to foot passengers and also temptation to theft, were not summoned also; and, whether he will issue orders to the police not to |