might fairly justify the Government in | tionery Department to obtain its supacting upon the suggestion of the hon. plies in England instead of in India as Member for Midhurst for the appoint- heretofore, and they described it as unment of a Committee. With regard to just towards India, and inconsistent with the Foreign Office papers, it must be re- the late resolution of the Government, membered that the better class of printing to encourage private trade by purchasing in connection with them meant higher its stores as far as possible in the Indian wages, and this would account for the market. The Order of the Secretary increase under that head. And not only of State had been made apparently in was the printing costly, but it was badly ignorance of the fact that the system of done. As a practical printer, he was pre- buying Government stationery in India pared to say that some of the Government had for some time worked well, and work was printed upon paper and with effected a large saving. He must say ink that, in the course of time, would that, on the face of it, the representation fade, and the reports become wholly of the Calcutta Trades Association was illegible. a reasonable one, and if it was a fact that the system of supplying the stationery from the Indian market had resulted in a saving, as compared with the system of supply from this country, it would be very difficult to justify the alteration made by the Secretary of State for transferring the business to England. There was another point arising on this Vote to which the noble Lord some months ago promised his attentionnamely, the amount of money paid for printing in the Foreign Office, the authorities at which Department had a special printing office under their control. He had pointed out on a previous occasion that the rates of payment for work done in that Department were various, and in many cases above the rates at which the work could be done by the Stationery Office. He was certain that the Controller of the Stationery Department had made representations as to the waste of money which took place in the Foreign Office in connection with printing; and he believed the noble Lord had stated that the matter should be inquired into, and the resolution arrived at stated to the Committee.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, that this subject had been under most careful consideration for several years. With respect to the appointment of a Committee, he would remind his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle that a Joint Committee of the two Houses had been recently sitting to inquire into the question of Parliamentary printing. The investigation of that Committee would undoubtedly embrace the points raised by his hon. Friend, and in the meantime he could assure him that every effort had been made to keep the expenditure under this Vote within proper bounds.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, he wished to ask the noble Lord for some information with regard to the charge upon page 146 for the Gazettes of London, Edinburgh, and Dublin. He would like to know what became of the £32,000 profit arising from these publications? Because, if it went to the printer, he was at a loss to understand why the money paid to the printer for the publication of the Gazettes was included in the account which resulted in this profit being shown. On the other hand, he did not see why it should be credited to the printer, because the estimated extra receipts amounted to only £4,690. Under the circumstances, it was difficult to see what became of this large sum of £32,000. There was another point to which he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord. Of late years the Stationery Office had obtained power to extend its operations to India; and he understood that the Calcutta tradesmen had made representations to the Government upon this subject. They protested against the recent Order of the Secretary of State directing the Sta

Mr. J. Cowen

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, that the explanation of the point of the hon. Member for Queen's County with regard to the publication of the Gazettes was that the money was paid in stamps and not in cash, and did not, therefore, appear in the actual receipts paid into the Exchequer. With regard to the Foreign Office printing, his hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had stated that the question was under the careful consideration of the Foreign Office; but it must be borne in mind that, although the printing done at the Office related to matters that were confidential, there were some

MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD asked for an explanation with respect to the increase of £10,000 for printing, binding, &c., for the two Houses of Parlia

classes of work of a more strictly con- | lowed by the arrest of the hon. Member fidential character than others; and it for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon)-The Dublin would, he thought, be very questionable Gazette was not obtainable on the Satureconomy to risk publicity by an attempt day, but was kept back from the public to get the printing executed at a smaller until midnight on Sunday. Now it was cost. Nevertheless, every endeavour something in the nature of a public would be made to see if anything could scandal, and one which called for the be saved in the Department in ques- notice of the Committee, that The Gazette tion. office, which had only to do the cut-anddried work of publication, should play into the hands of the authorities of Dublin Castle, by delaying the publication of this official record, in order to prevent the citizens of Dublin being made aware of the fact that their city was proclaimed. That act might be held to be illegal; and it might even follow that because The Gazette was issued on Sunday the proclamation was illegal also, and that the hon. Member for Tipperary was now lying in Kilmainham under illegal duresse. Не trusted the noble Lord would make a statement on this subject on Report.

ment.

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH said, he hoped that before long the Report of the Joint Committee of the two Houses upon the subject of Parliamentary printing would be in the hands of hon. Members. Although the arrangements with regard to stationery were not under his direction, the whole question was receiving the attention of the Go

vernment.

MR. HEALY wished to ask the noble Lord a question with regard to the increase of £1,000 upon the amount paid last year to Mr. Hansard in respect of Parliamentary Reporting-an increase which he was glad to see, and about which he would simply inquire whether it was to become a permanent charge in the Estimates? He observed, also, a charge for a number of copies of the Debates purchased from Mr. Hansard, and presumed that these were distributed amongst the various Public Offices. Perhaps the noble Lord would afford some explanation upon these points? The noble Lord would be aware of the great interest taken by the public in the Irish Land Question, and that a large demand had been created for copies of the Irish Land Bill; and he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that what he might call fancy prices were being charged for them. He would therefore suggest that, as in the case of other Parliamentary Papers, the price should be stated on the face of the Bills before Parliament, so that no extra might be exacted from the public. Then with regard to the charge for The Dublin Gazette. It was well known that this was published on Saturdays, and that it had been enacted by statute that proclamations of Irish towns and districts should appear in that Gazette. But, upon a recent occasion, when the City of Dublin was proclaimed-an event folVOL, CCLXIV. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. LABOUCHERE pointed out that the printing of the House of Commons cost more than that of the House of Lords. Confidential printing, conducted at the Foreign Office, was charged 26 per cent more for than when it was done elsewhere. He also wished to point out that every Member of that House received a ton weight of Blue Books every year. Within the last six years £55,000 had been saved in the expenditure on the Stationery Office, and he believed that a further sum of £10,000 per annum might be saved in that Department.

MR. J. COWEN said, he thought the increased expenditure with regard to Mr. Hansard's reports was fully accounted for by the increased amount of work done, and that the additional sum paid to that gentleman only compensated, and no more than compensated, for the additional labour thrown upon him. He thought that the House would be compelled very shortly to face the fact that either it must abandon Mr. Hansard's reports or pay him a larger sum of money, or that it must adopt some system of official reporting. Mr. Hansard's reports were admirably done, and the books were exceedingly well printed, and he believed their value was in no way repaid by the amount of this grant. There was no doubt that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer made an excellent bargain with Mr. Hansard, inas

Y

He

that although no profit was received from no less a sum than £2,000. Here, again, this source, there were profits received great complaint was made of the conduct from other sources-namely, the profits of the Commissioners; but he should of mines, rents for sporting, estrays, &c. not trouble the Committee with the deNow, with regard to the mines he con- tails, further than by pointing out that tended that they should be managed in the practice appeared to be to deal with the way that would develop them most gold and lead mines in the same arbitrary for the good of the country; but his and inconsiderate manner. Now, his charge against the Department with re- proposal was to relieve the Department ference to the management of mines was of all trouble and responsibility with that their policy tended to retard the regard to the soil and surface of these development of the mines, and so do a 85,000 acres of land, an arrangement very serious injury to the people and that would allow for the reduction of to the country. The terms demanded the establishment to about the extent by the Commissioners of Woods and represented by the sum by which he Forests were such as the Committee moved the reduction of this Vote. would see at once no private individual contended that the present system of would insert in his lease. It was control could not be maintained with required that on every transfer of any advantage to the country; and he bemine there should be payable to the lieved that if the full Return asked for, Commissioners of Woods and Forests not showing the receipts and expenditure, only a quarter of the profits, but one- had been granted, it would have apfourth of the nominal profit on the sale peared that a large sum of money was of the mine. The only reason given for being paid for no useful purpose whatthat provision was that it put a stop to ever. He challenged the noble Lord speculation in mines. But a moment's in charge of the Estimates to say what consideration of this matter would show the rents for sporting amounted to. that the effect was in the contrary direc- As far as his own experience went the tion, because it was no hardship to specu- Commissioners of Woods and Forests lators who received cash for their shares occasionally got an English gentleman to to pay over one-fourth of the money to take a lease, and to pay rent for a certain the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. number of years; but although he was The effect, however, would be very dif- aware that such instances had occurred, ferent in the case of a man who had dis- he had never known or heard of any covered a good mine, and who agreed such lease being renewed. It sometimes to take no cash at all, but only paid- happened, also, that a neighbouring landup shares. Supposing he was willing owner took one of these leases for the to sell for £1,000 over and above his purpose of better preserving his own expenses, the transaction could not be adjoining shooting; and they were, percarried out unless he could and would find haps, renewed in cases of that kind. £250 in cash to pay to the Commissioners However that might be, he felt certain of Woods and Forests. He maintained that the amount of revenue derived from that a provision of that sort was calcu- the letting of sporting rights was exceedlated to retard the development of the ingly small. Next came the revenue mining resources of the country. More- from estrays, the meaning of which was over, he had known instances in which the profit derived from the catching he believed that simply in consequence of stray sheep. Upon this subject he of the outrageous provisions made by would remark that, having gone carethe Commissioners, mines had been fully into the question, he believed that stopped, and a large number of miners the opinion in the country was that a had been thrown out of work, and any- great deal of wrong went on under the one living in the neighbourhood of mines name of taking estrays. He had never would understand the full significance of been able to ascertain in what way the that fact. Not only were there lead revenue under this head was made up or mines in Cardiganshire, which, to a large collected; but perhaps the noble Lord extent, for this cause remained unde- would be able to say something in exveloped, but there were also gold mines planation of this matter. He believed, in Merionethshire, from which it was a however, that the Committee would fact that the Commissioners of Woods agree that unless the revenue derived and Forests had in one year received from this source was large and import