THE CHAIRMAN: I have pointed out to the hon. Member that the question of the arrests comes under the Vote for the Executive. This is simply a Vote for the Household, and his remarks are out of Order. and his Chief Secretary very exceptional | tion. He would recommend a "bag powers, and such as had never before and baggage policy" for Ireland as been extended to any authority in Great complete as was suggested for Bulgaria. Britain. They had placed the liberties He objected to this household of the of the people of Ireland at the arbitrary Lord Lieutenant, and he objected to the will of two men, with regard to one of Lord Lieutenant himself. He supposed whom he must say that the present if there were no Lord Lieutenant there Lord Lieutenant had shown that he was would be no necessity for the household, very much given to that turn of mind and therefore he objected to the expenwhich enabled him to see reasonable diture for the household of the Lord grounds of suspicion against men whom Lieutenant. He wished to say that he he and his subordinates or satellites did not make his observations with remight choose to represent as fit subjects gard to the arrests in Ireland without for imprisonment. The Chief Secretary personal knowledge. He had good perto the Lord Lieutenant had, in his sonal knowledge of years standing with place in that House, repeatedly stated many of the men now imprisoned. that these powers were conferred in order that persons of bad character and unruly members of the community should be placed under restraint when it was found impossible by ordinary process of law to prevent them carrying out their mischievous designs. But the result of these powers was that the turbulent were at large, and that the village ruffians were safe and perfectly free. There was no single village tyrant in prison in Ireland under the Coercion Acts, and there was no single Queen's County landlord who for one moment was in apprehension for his personal safety. There was a tyrannous attitude towards the people that would go far to break the spirit and crush the independence of any population less elastic than the Irish people. But, on the other hand, the Chief Secretary had listened to interested representations - had given his ear to the persistent suggestions of men who, whether they were supported by Secret Service money or not, he (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) did not know, but who had instilled into him the idea that the men most trusted by the people were fit subjects for the exercise of his exceptional powers; and it was found from one end of Ireland to the other, men whose lives up to the present had been blameless, against whom no specific charge could be brought-men who were trusted THE CHAIRMAN: I would point out to the hon. Member that the right time to discuss this subject is on the next Vote for the Executive. This is simply a Vote for the Household. MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, quite so; but he would do away with the Lord Lieutenant, and he would include the household in the comdemna MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR said, as, of course, he was not in a position to challenge the ruling of the Chair, there was absolutely nothing for him to do but to submit to it, which, under the circumstances, he did. But he would go on to the next head of the Vote-the salary and allowances to the chaplain. The chaplain of Dublin Castle received £184 128. 8d., and an allowance, in lieu of a furnished house, of £150-that was, in a round sum, £335 a-year for a chaplain for Dublin Castle. He was under the impression that the Lord Lieutenant for the time being must necessarily be a Protestant and a member of the Church of England, and the chaplain presumably would be a member of the same Church. This was a charge, therefore, for the appointment, in a Catholic country, and where the Church of England had been disestablished, and which was maintained out of the taxes upon a Catholic population, of a chaplain-to which appointment a member of the same faith as the great majority of the people was not eligible. This appointment of a chaplain to the Lord Lieutenant, from which Roman Catholics were excluded, was a remnant from the days when the ecclesiastical supremacy of the majority of the people of this country was maintained in Ireland. He objected, therefore, to this pay to the chaplain to the Castle of Dublin; and the "reading clerk," of course, would come under the same condemnation, as did also the organist, the master of the chair, and the keeper of the chapel. He did not know whether it was necessary to refer to the item of £1,562 for Queen's Plates to be run for in Ireland. He fancied that those who derived any benefit from these Plates did not belong to the great bulk of the people of Ireland; but as objection was not raised to a similar item in the Scotch Vote, he would not oppose this particular item. He regretted that it would not be in Order, according to the ruling of the Chairman, to discuss the conduct of the Lord Lieutenant in connection with the household provided for him by the House. His official residence-the Castle-had over its gates the emblem of Justice, and it was remarkably well placed, for its back was turned to the people. MR. LEAMY said, the Committee had heard a great deal about the Ulster King-at-Arms; could the Chief Secretary give any information about another official, the "Kettle Drummer," and could he also say what were the duties of the "Serjeant of the Riding House?" MR. HEALY said, he should like to ask a question with regard to some enclosures in Phoenix Park, and he thought the inquiry would properly come under this Vote. Why was it that the "swells" of Dublin, and none but those connected with the Castle, were allowed intakes from the Park for cricket and other purposes? THE CHAIRMAN: This question would apply to a Vote which has been passed, Class I. MR. HEALY said, of course, if it was out of Order he would not put the question; but he thought that the Committee, being now upon the Vote for Household Expenditure, this matter would come under it. THE CHAIRMAN: No; it is not in the Vote at all. MR. W. E. FORSTER said, as to the inquiry of the hon. Member for Waterford, the office of "Serjeant of the Riding House was instituted in 1843, with a salary of £30 a-year, in lieu of the appointment of a Master of the Riding House, with a salary of £200. The Kettle Drummer" was the only remnant of a band of a drummer and six trumpeters appointed in the days of Charles II. He received £61, and when the present holder of the office died the question of renewing the appointment would be re-considered. Mr. Arthur O'Connor MR. HEALY said, he should be glad to know if the Chief Secretary could inform him by whose instructions were the intakes from the Park in the neighbourhood of the Castle made, and whether they were permitted in favour of others besides those having connection with the Castle? He would also like to know if the state of friction still continued between the Veterinary authorities and the Lord Lieutenant with regard to the sale of milk? Formerly, the Lord Lieutenant sold his milk and his cabbages, and the result was that the Veterinary authorities of Dublin insisted that there should be the usual inspection, and the Vice-regal milk was for a time stopped. Did that state of things exist now, or had an Order in Council exempted Phoenix Park from that veterinary inspection, which was insisted upon in respect to other dealers in milk and keepers of cows? MR. W. E. FORSTER said, as to the first question, it had been ruled by the Chairman as not being pertinent to the Vote. If the hon. Member would give Notice of a Question on the subject, he would endeavour to answer. As regarded the other point, he had heard of no state of friction, and he was not aware that the Lord Lieutenant sold milk and cabbages. MR. HEALY said, his Predecessor did. MR. FINDLATER said, he must protest against the idea that the people of Dublin had any wish for the abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy. He had been a citizen of Dublin for 40 years, and had every means of knowing that the views of the citizens were quite the reverse of those that had been put forward by hon. Members, who, after all, were not Dublin ratepayers. MR. BIGGAR said, he was not prepared to dispute the statement of the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Findlater) that a large proportion of the population of Dublin were in favour of the maintenance of the Lord Lieutenant. This would be found to be the case in the neighbourhood of every centre of the aristocracy. The small shopkeeping class in every village set more value upon the small amount of their sales to landlords and land agents than on all their other business. The same was the case in Dublin. All those who obtained custom from the Castle, or who got invitations to State balls or ceremonies, or who were on terms with those who were sometimes invited, or who got employment directly or indirectly with regard to matters of this sort-all these were exceedingly anxious there should be no change. The vanity of women also showed itself in connection with the Castle ceremonies. But all this was what he objected to. Any political spirit that was displayed in other parts of Ireland never found moral support in the capital of the country; but, on the contrary, there were always objections and adverse criticisms from the parties in place, and those under their influence. Another objection to the present system was that the class of persons he had referred to-the genteel and semi-genteel peopleof Dublin-instilled into the ears of the Lord Lieutenant the most absurd and erroneous ideas as to the wants and wishes of the Irish people. Any good intentions he might have had no support. The Lord Lieutenant and the Government in Dublin were so earwigged by the shopocracy and the professional classes that they were misled as to what was desirable and what ought to be done for the good of the Irish people. Then he was justified as a taxpayer-as an Imperial taxpayer-in objecting to a Vote of this kind; and he did object to the Vote as a whole, and without reference to special items, though he did especially to the item for Ulster King at Arms, though the right hon. Gentleman very skilfully referred to the fees that some parties paid to this official. Why not leave him to the support he received from this source? Of course, if there was to be a Lord Lieutenant at all, he must have a household; but what was wanted was to get rid of the Lord Lieutenant and his household with him. It seemed to him that English and Scotch Members ought to assist Members from Ireland in getting rid of an unreasonable and anomalous expenditure, just as Irish Members would assist in putting an end to a useless expenditure in Edinburgh or elsewhere. He could not understand why English Members should insist on voting for expenditure for matters which were, in his opinion, at least, most unreasonable. Of the Lord Lieutenant himself he knew nothing, except that his name appeared as the signature to warrants for consigning prisoners to gaol. Nothing seemed to be known practically as to his abilities or capabilities; he seemed to be a mere blind tool in the hands of wirepullers, beyond which he did nothing. Surrounding him the Lord Lieutenant had secretaries and a staff of clerks; but it seemed an absurd thing that he should require this array of clerks, aides-de-camp, Steward of the Household, Gentlemen Ushers, and so on. All these were matters for which a Vote should not be asked, and he considered he was only doing his duty in refusing such a Vote. All these things had a tendency to demoralize and corrupt the genteel and semi-genteel population of Ireland, and the trading classes, who hoped to get occupation in connection with these offices. They lessened the influence of Members of Parliament and of public opinion, and encouraged a great amount of mischief, and, on the other side, not a word had been said in defence by the Chief Secretary. MR. CALLAN said, he was not surprised that the Lord Lieutenant had not received any defence, because he believed that, if out of Office, the Chief Secretary would join with the political section to which he belonged in seeking to abolish the office, the Four Courts of Dublin, and every distinction that distinguished the capital of Ireland from the position of a provincial town such as Manchester or Liverpool. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) did not represent the mass of the educated opinion of Ireland, for that mass was in favour of retaining the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland, and with an increased brilliancy, if possible. It was regarded as one of the land marks of Irish Nationality. ["No, no!"] He had his own opinion as a Nationalist, and had expressed it before many of those who interrupted him were known in the political world. He looked upon this Lord Lieutenancy as a golden link tothe Crown, and he looked forward to the time when instead of being a mere appanage to the Crown, one of the Princes of the Blood Royal would assume the office of Lord Lieutenant, and a son of Her Majesty open a Parliament in Dublin composed of Representatives of the opinions of the country. Those who had a stake in the country and were anxious for their country's prosperity wished to see that day, and he hoped to see it yet, though he was not so sanguine as he was some half-a-dozen years ago. But as to what had been said of the opinion of Dublin, | favour of the maintenance of this instiif that alone were favourable to the re- tution. He was within his right in extention of the office of Lord Lieutenant, pressing his opinion; but the distinction it would not merit much consideration, he had gained was not to be envied, for for Dublin was not the capital of Ire- there was no question that throughout land so much as it was the capital of Ireland the vast majority of the people the flunkeyism of the country, and he were bitterly hostile to this institution. would wish to remove the office of Lord Dublin was the rallying point of antiLieutenant from the dingy gilding that national opinion; Dublin opinion was denow surrounded it and to brighten it moralized and corrupt, and there could be into a real Royal Court. He should no thoroughly healthy national life there vote for the retention of the Vote if the until the officialism ofthe Castle and its Amendment was intended as an expres- evil traditions were entirely swept away. sion of opinion against the office of Lord There were many reasons that made Lieutenant of Ireland. him anxious to oppose this Vote, and he hoped that the opposition would be carried to a division. Amongst other reasons, because the Lord Lieutenant, whose existence as such was called in question upon this Vote, was the ostensible mode of carrying into effect the tyrannical coercive laws. The only reason why he seemed to have any existence in Ireland was because his name should appear at the foot of warrants issued in Ireland for the purpose of incarcerating men against whom no crime was alleged, men who ever commanded the respect and esteem of their fellows. But he would not infringe upon the Chairman's ruiing; and he sincerely trusted that on a subsequent Vote there might be a more legitimate raising of the questions attaching to the office, as well as others in connection with the Gentleman who filled the ill-starred office of Chief Secretary. On this Vote he would say nothing further, and he hoped a division would be taken if only to show that the hon. Members for Monaghan and Louth did not share the opinions of the majority of Irish Representatives. MR. REDMOND said, he thought it was the duty of Irish Members to offer strenuous opposition to Votes which were asked for for the maintenance of institutions which they believed prejudicial to the true interests of the country. He believed that the institution of Lord Lieutenant was altogether bad. It formed in Ireland a centre for the demoralization of the whole country. Those who represented the feelings and aspirations of the people had too much reason to look with despair upon Dublin, because every national movement, every outcome of national sentiment from the Irish people met with opposition always directed from Dublin. What the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Findlater) said with respect to the opinion of Dublin was no doubt strictly correct, and no doubt that opinion was in favour of the retention of this institution. It was but natural that it should be so, and the institution itself had created such an amount of national demoralization and national degradation in Dublin as was quite sufficient to account for the opinion. What the state of Dublin society was could be gathered from the descriptions of Charles Lever and others, and it was known that Dublin society was made up of men who had no right whatever to pose as the gentry of the country. Public opinion in Dublin had grown corrupt under Castle influences, and that was why the opinion of Dublin was in favour of an institution which the rest of Ire land viewed with strong dislike; and those who desired to see this influence abolished were determined that the Vote should not be carried without a full expression of opinion upon it. The hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan) had gratified his wish to stand up as the only Member on those Benches to say a word in Mr. Callan MR. FINIGAN said, he had not heard one reasonable argument in support of the Vote, but many why the opposition should be continued. He disputed altogether that there was any justice in supporting a Vote of this large sum of money annually, to maintain a foreign Household in the capital of Ireland. It being a quarter of an hour before Resolutions to be reported To-morrow. House adjourned at ten minutes HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, 4th August, 1881. to keep the peace; and as it was in that year deemed safe to throw out the Protection of Life Bill, so he thought the present Ministry, having a Coercion Bill and an Arms Bill, might well dispense with this Bill. He feared that he might MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-be alone, like the Father of Lentulus, Ecclesiastical Courts Regulation (201); Superannuation (Post Office and Works) (203). when he voted against buying off the Gauls with gold; but he could not willingly go on with this Bill, full of Committee-Land Law (Ireland) (187); Removal Terms (Scotland) * (184). such sweeping changes as were devised Committee-Report-Presumption of Life (Scot- by it, and concluded by moving his. land) (197). Amendment. Amendment moved to leave out LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL.-(No. 187.) ("now") and add at the end of the (The Lord Privy Seal.) COMMITTEE. [FIRST NIGHT.] motion ("on this day six months.")(The Lord Denman.) On question, that ("now") stand part Order of the Day for the House to be of the motion, resolved in the affirmative. put into Committee, read. Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."-(The Lord Privy Seal.) LORD DENMAN rose to move, as an Amendment, that the House do resolve itself into Committee on that day six months. He (Lord Denman) had read and written out all the Amendments upon the Bill, so that he did not hastily condemn the measure; but he was sure that litigation might be increased by it, and an appeal to the House of Lords had been proposed as an Amendment. THE EARL OF AIRLIE rose to Order, observing that it would be irregular to enter into a discussion of the Amendments at that stage of the Bill. LORD DENMAN remarked, that he was often interrupted in that House, and referred to his Protest of 12th July, 1869, in which he showed how Lord Dunboyne, an Irish Peer, had been prevented from speaking on the Irish Land Bill. He went on to allude to 1844, when three noble and learned Lords, all pupils of a most eminent Special Pleader (Mr. Tidd), had overruled Lords Lyndhurst and Brougham on the O'Connell case, and reminded their Lordships that, although from an irregularity as to the jury, the defendant (O'Connell) escaped eight out of 12 months of imprisonment, and a fine of £5,000, yet the law was vindicated. He also alluded to 1846, when his noble and learned Relative had proposed clauses for the Protection of Life Bill, empowering the Lord Lieutenant and Magistrates to bind accused parties over House in Committee accordingly. ment it shall be lawful for the landlord to pre("Provided always, that in defect of agree sent for the approval of the Commissioners the purchaser whose holding shall be considered most advantageous to the estate by reason of contiguity.") The noble Lord said, the object of the Amendment was that where two persons were willing to purchase a particular lot, the landlord should have the power of making the selection most advantageous to the estate. No damage would be done to the tenant in the circumstances. LORD HARLECH said, he was glad that this Amendment had been moved by an Ulster landlord who was in favour of tenant right. The principle was a good one, because where consolidation could be effected within certain limits it was a most advantageous thing both for landlord and tenant. LORD CARLINGFORD said, the Amendment had been carefully considered by the Government, and he could assure the noble Lord behind him that it would be quite unnecessary, because the Bill did not contemplate, nor would the Court require, directions as to a presentation of this kind. The matter would be found to work itself satisfactorily out in practice. [First Night.] |