SIR HENRY HOLLAND said, that he was in the Colonial Office when Mr. Woods was serving in the Office. He was transferred from the Treasury to the post of Assistant Librarian, and, no doubt, he expected to have been made in time Librarian; but he never could have had any absolute claim to such advancement. Indeed, it would be impossible for the Treasury to answer for the organization of any office for all time to

but as to any equitable right he might | Mr. Woods, who had been at the Treahave to compensation. The case was put sury for some years, was transferred to fully before Lord Cairns, who decided the post of Assistant Librarian at the that Mr. Woods' claim could not be re- Colonial Office with the distinct expeccognized; and, under these circumstances, tation that he would succeed in due I do not think that the case ought to course to the office of Librarian. Lord be re-opened. Carnarvon added that he had acquiesced, although reluctantly, in the decision at which the Treasury had arrived in reference to the claims of Mr. Woods; but he thought that that gentleman had taken an inadvisable course in taking legal proceedings against the Government. The fact was that Mr. Woods submitted his claim to the Treasury, and finding that he could get no redress, he published the correspondence. It was always considered that a public officer, however harsh the decision against him might be, should submit without placing his grievances before the general public by publishing the correspondence. It appeared that in this case the Government consented to an arbitration; but the arbitration was of a thoroughly illusory character, because the person most interested in the matter did not obtain leave to state his case before the arbitrator. He (Mr. Biggar) had never in his life heard of a more ab

come.

The hon. Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor), who brought the subject forward, said the abolition of the office of Librarian at the Colonial Office had not been altogether bond fide. Now, the fact of the matter was this-the whole Office was re-organized, and, with a view to prevent any increase of expenditure, several posts were abolished, among which was that of Librarian. Anything more bond fide it was impossible to conceive. It was found quite unnecessary to have a Librarian and an Assistant Librarian, and the present present Superintendent of the Library was appointed at £300 a-year, rising to £500. He was sorry that Mr. Woods had not been allowed to go before the arbitrator. He did not think that that gentleman would have been able to prove his case; but it would have been more consistent with the principles of justice that he should have been allowed to appear before Lord Cairns, and state the nature of his grievance personally. If Mr. Woods had had that opportunity afforded to him of fully explaining his case to an impartial arbitrator, they would probably have heard no more of the matter.

MR. BIGGAR remarked, that from all he could gather in reference to the case, Mr. Woods seemed to have been very badly treated. His hon. Friend the Member for Queen's County (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) had already read a few words. from a speech of Lord Carnarvon, when Colonial Secretary, when the case was brought before the House of Lords by Lord O'Hagan. Lord Carnarvon dealt with the case upon its merits, and justice and the noble Lord said that in 1859

surd arbitration. Only one party was allowed to appear and be heard before it. If the Treasury really wished that justice should be done, they should have allowed Mr. Woods to appear before Lord Cairns and state his case; and if the decision of Lord Cairns, after having fully heard the case, had then been against him, no doubt Mr. Woods would have been satisfied. It was not possible that he would be satisfied, or would believe that he had not been unjustly treated, when he found that the Government refused to submit anything to the arbitrator beyond their own version of the case. It certainly seemed to him, if the case had been properly represented, that Mr. Woods' application for a fresh hearing should be acceded to, and that the case should be re-opened by a fair and impartial tribunal, before which both parties could be heard.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR very much regretted to hear the statement which had been made by the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury. The hon. Baronet the Member for Midhurst (Sir Henry Holland) objected to the statement he (Mr. O'Connor) had made that

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: I am sorry that I cannot accede to the request of the hon. Member. The case has already been fully investigated. Mr. Woods took legal proceedings in order to assert his rights; and he was subsequently, as a matter of favour, allowed to go before an arbitrator. The case has, therefore, been fully gone into, and I do not think it necessary, or desirable, to re-open it.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) £16,077, to complete the sum for the Privy Council Office.

(3.) Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That a sum, not exceeding £1,355, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course day of March 1882, for the Salaries and Expenses of payment during the year ending on the 31st of the Office of the Lord Privy Seal."

the abolition of the office of Librarian at | he ought to have received, was about the Colonial Office had not been bond fide. £120 a-year lower than that which he He had not made the observation with would have received if he had been any desire to be offensive, and, as ex- allowed to go up to the maximum ception was taken to it, he regretted amount of salary he was induced to bethat he had made use of it. All he now lieve he would reach. He would again asked for was that the Government would press the Government to print and disconsent to print the further Papers which tribute the Papers relating to the case. four years ago were ordered by the House of Lords to be printed. The House of Lords consented to print them in the year 1877; but when he applied to the House of Lords for a copy of the Papers he was informed that the entry in the Votes was a Parliamentary fiction, and that, in point of fact, the Papers never had been presented. He believed they had been printed for the official purposes of the Colonial Office, so that it would not be difficult to furnish copies of them if the Government would consent to their being printed. He merely asked now that the Treasury should consent to the production of the Papers, and he had no intention of objecting to the Vote. With regard to what the noble Lord the Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Frederick Cavendish) had said as to the unreasonableness of the expectation that any particular post should be retained for the benefit of a particular individual, a careful perusal of the Estimates for the present year would show that, in many cases, existing offices were kept open for certain officers. Here and there a note would be found appended to a Vote stating that "this post will be abolished on the retirement of the present officer," or words to that effect. All he would say in regard to the abolition of the office of Librarian at the Colonial Office was, that however unnecessary the post was a year ago, or 10 years ago, it was equally unnecessary when Mr. Woods was first appointed. If the Government thought at that time that in consideration of the past services of Mr. Woods he should have a claim to the office of Librarian, when it became vacant, they would be equally justified, when the post became vacant, in fulfilling their promise, and allowing Mr. Woods to hold the office until he had attained the maximum amount of pay he was led to believe he would ultimately reach. As a matter of fact, by the course pursued by the Treasury, Mr. Woods had been deprived of salary to the extent of £1,000; and the pension upon which he had been retired, having regard to the rate of pay Mr. Arthur O'Connor

MR. DILLWYN objected to the Vote, because he believed that the Office of Lord Privy Seal was a sinecure. He had objected to the Vote in other years, and had divided the Committee against it; but he should not take a division this year, because he did not wish to put the Committee to the trouble of a division. He had often entered his protest against the Vote; and, if he took a division, it would only be entering another protest, and wasting the time of the Committee, without obtaining any practical result. He was, however, influenced on this occasion in not taking a division by this consideration-that the Minister who now held the Office had been appointed because he was thoroughly conversant with Irish affairs, and everybody knew there was a great pressure upon the Irish Office at the present moment. Lord Carlingford, the present Lord Privy Seal, was eminently fitted to assist the Irish Office in the legislation now proposed for Ireland; and, under these circumstances, he (Mr. Dillwyn) would content himself with entering a protest against the Vote,

SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL wished to have an explanation upon a much smaller matter. He saw that the following note was appended to the Vote:"The Assistant Clerk also draws a pension of £79 68. 8d. per annum from the Superanuation Vote, as late second class clerk in the Office of Works. His salary has been raised from £105 to £150 per annum.'

He thought it was wrong that this sort of thing should be allowed. If they had a gentleman who, on account of his age, had been superannuated in another Department, he did not see why he should be employed in the Office of Lord Privy Seal, nor could he imagine why it should have been found necessary to raise the salary of such an officer. He certainly thought the matter required a little explanation.

without putting the Committee to the | be wholly occupied with Departmental trouble of a division. work; but, in this particular instance, that idea was altogether illusory, the fact being that the majority of noble Lords who had held the Office of Lord Privy Seal had not been remarkable for the assistance they had contributed to the work of the Government. It had been abundantly proved that a considerable amount of positive delay in the transaction of Public Business was occasioned in consequence of the necessity of having certain documents stamped in the Privy Seal Office before being passed by the Great Seal. At the time of the last discussion, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the Office was a very ancient one, and that it had been handed down through a great number of Cabinets. That, however, was about the only argument the right hon. Gentleman advanced. The hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) said he was bound to admit that the Office was a sinecure, and that it ought to be abolished. The hon. Baronet, in the division which followed, accordingly voted in favour of its abolition; and he (Mr. O'Connor) hoped that on this occasion, if the hon. Baronet was in the House, he would vote for its abolition now. He was glad to see that the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney) was in his place, because he also voted in 1879 for the abolition of the Office, on the ground that it was a sinecure. And not only did the Under Secretary of State for the Home De

LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: The gentleman referred to in the question of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) was removed from the Office of Works, where he received a higher salary than that which he receives in the Privy Seal Office, and it was felt right that he should receive compensation for the loss. He has accordingly been awarded the sum stated in the Vote. The transaction was completed shortly before the present Government came into Office.

MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR regretted that the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) should be prepared, now that the Liberals were in Office, to take apartment take that course, but he was very different course from that which he took in the year 1879, when the Liberals were out of Office. As he (Mr. O'Connor) was not influenced by any such considerations, he was indisposed to allow the Vote to pass without challenging it. The arguments which the noble Lord the Member for Calne (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) two years ago brought to bear against the retention of the Office of Lord Privy Seal had remained unanswered up to the present day. The noble Lord, on that occasion, pointed out that the continuance of this Office, instead of assisting the Public Business, really obstructed it. That was to say, that it acted as an unnecessary check upon the transaction of useful Public Business. No doubt, it might be desirable occasionally to have a Member of the Ministry whose time would not

supported by another hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, the Attorney General (Sir Henry James), who also voted for the abolition of the Office. Under these circumstances, he (Mr. O'Connor) thought he was justified in the determination he had come to of taking a division upon the Vote. He desired, however, to offer a slight hint as to the division, because he thought it would be unjust to nominate as a Teller in support of the Vote the noble Lord the Member for Haverfordwest (Lord Kensington), who acted as one of the Treasury Whips, that noble Lord having voted in favour of the abolition of the Office, as a sinecure, on the previous occasion. He thought the noble Lord could hardly "tell" for the Government now in support of the Vote, seeing that he had voted for getting rid of the Office,

retained in the Public Service; and, | much aggrieved by the fact that the considering the increase of his duties, noble Viscount had left Office without and the heavy responsibilities that at- carrying out the pledge which he contached to him, he had proposed to place sidered had been given. When Mr. him in the position of Assistant Secre- Giffen made that statement, he (Mr. tary. The change of Government then Chamberlain) considered it his duty to took place, and his right hon. Friend the ask the noble Viscount privately whelate Chancellor of the Exchequer felt it ther he had given such a pledge; and the would not be right to commit the coun- noble Viscount stated that he had not try to that large change at a time when done so, or, at all events, that he did not he was leaving Office. A Minute had recollect it. He, therefore, considered it been made to that effect. He had no impossible to pursue the matter any doubt the President of the Board of further. Mr. Giffen had only expressed Trade would be in a position to state to his view of the affair, and the noble the Committee good reasons for not ac- Viscount was, of course, entitled to state ceding to the proposal with regard to his recollection with regard to it. All Mr. Giffen. He hoped also that some that he (Mr. Chamberlain) knew officially information might be given, if possible, with reference to the matter was that about the changes which were to be undoubtedly an application had been made as to a Department of Agriculture made by Mr. Giffen to the noble Viscount, and Commerce. He knew the subject who referred it to the Treasury, and that was full of difficulties; but he should it was refused by that Department under be glad if the right hon. Gentleman the late Government. The present Gocould state what was the scheme of vernment, therefore, had simply to conthe Government with regard to it. He sider whether they should do something could not but impress upon the Com- which their Predecessors in Office had mittee the great importance and use of distinctly refused to do. They had not the Statistical Department. finally decided that they would not do what was asked of them. The matter was still under consideration, because he felt, especially after the experience which he had had of Mr. Giffen's value, that it was of importance to the Public Service that his services should be, if possible, retained. He was in communication with the Treasury upon this subject when Mr. Giffen had, as he believed, some offer made to him which he said would greatly improve his position, and which he felt himself justified in accepting; and, accordingly, he asked him (Mr. Chamberlain) to accept his resignation. When a Question was asked in the House by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Stuart Wortley), he stated, in reply, that Mr. Giffen had resigned his position in the Service in order to better his prospects. Subsequently to that changes were contemplated in the Office, which would throw additional work on the Statistical Department, and he had then made another attempt to retain Mr. Giffen's services, and had so far succeeded that Mr. Giffen had, at all events, temporarily withdrawn his resignation, and his final position with respect to the Department would not be determined until the question of a Ministry of Commerce and Agriculture was decided.

MR. CHAMBERLAIN said, with regard to the last question of the noble Viscount (Viscount Sandon), the Prime Minister had some time ago stated that it was then impossible, on account of the pressure of public affairs, either for himself or his Colleagues to give that consideration to the subject which it required; but he proposed to consider it during the Recess, and to take action with regard to it on a future occasion. With regard to Mr. Giffen's position at the Board of Trade, he rather regretted the remarks of the noble Viscount, because he had referred to matters which, he considered, were of a confidential character, and quite apart from the subject of the Vote. He believed the noble Viscount would see that there was some inconvenience in referring to the matter, because there arose at once a conflict of testimony on the subject. He was compelled to say that he differed from the view of the case which had been taken by the noble Viscount, and would add that his view was not that taken by Mr. Giffen himself. Mr. Giffen's impression with regard to the matter was, that he had received a distinct promise from the noble Viscount that his position at the Board of Trade should be improved; and he seemed very