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LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY said, he should oppose the Bill. With regard to Scotland, it proposed to set in motion sanitary inspectors, who in England were often the greatest nuisances. Those officials would be sure to object to the box beds with sliding doors in use in some parts of the Highlands, on the ground that they were stuffy. The size and strength of the Highland population showed that they did not require the interference of nuisance inspectors. As to Ireland, he knew a case of an Irish landlord who wished to improve the cottages on his estate, and built them of two stories. They had, however, not been working long when the clerk of the works ran away because his life was threatened, and the architect was not sorry when he also was able to get away from the place.

to build cottages at that price. But, | Lord would not confine the Bill to the assuming that cottages in Ireland con- poor, but would give the rich the benefit taining everything that, according to the of it, and force the Duke of Westminster Irish idea, was requisite for the decen- to rebuild any of his houses found decies of life, could be built for £14 each, fective in sanitary arrangements. the owner of the estate he had mentioned might be called upon to expend £56,000 upon his estate, and that, too, at a moment when the landlords were about to be deprived of the power of managing their property, and the tenants were to have the right of selling the cottages that had been built for them. This was the proposition of a noble Peer, and made to their Lordships with a grave face. He did not himself believe that cottages could be built for £14 each. He had asked some Irish authorities their opinion on the subject, and he was informed that the lowest would be between £50 and £60 each. If the landlord refused to build, the local authority might do so out of the poor rate, and any profit arising might go to the relief of the poor. He thought he had said enough to their Lordships to show this was the most impracticable scheme ever presented to any Parliament, and presented at the moment when they were about to consider, and very likely to nearly abolish, all powers of the landlord. The noble Lord could not expect to pass the measure this Session; but, as a matter of form, he would move that it be read a second time that day three months.

Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the motion ("this day three months.") (The Duke of Argyll.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY said, he rather took exception to the Bill of the noble Lord on the ground that it did not go far enough. The noble Lord was a timid reformer. By one portion of the measure it was proposed that large powers should be vested in the local authorities to charge the poor rate for the improvement of dwellings wherever defects were found to exist in their sanitary arrangements. He ventured to point out that not far from where they were sitting, in great streets and squares, there could be found many houses defective in sanitary arrangements; and he dared say in Belgrave and Eaton Squares, and many other fashionable parts of London, there would be found houses so defective. He hoped the noble

The Duke of Argyll

LORD CARLINGFORD said, this question of the condition of labourers' cottages in Ireland was, in the opinion of the Government, a very serious matter indeed. While heartily sympathizing with the objects of the noble Lord, he agreed with others who had spoken that the Bill was a most startling one, inasmuch as its results apparently would be to make it the duty of Boards of Guardians in Ireland to rebuild all the cabins

of that country. If any legislation on would require a great deal of considerathis subject was to be undertaken it tion and careful handling of details, such as it would be impossible for the Government or the House to give to it in the present Session. He trusted, therefore, that the Motion for the second reading of the Bill would not be pressed.

LORD WAVENEY said, that although the criticisms the Bill had received had been very severe, he did not admit that they were difficult to answer; but, on the contrary, believed facts would show many of the objections would be wholly without foundation. He might say that he had no intention of bringing forward again the proposals contained in this Bill as an index to the Land Bill now before the House of Commons. The subject had been discussed; and as he did not wish to be the means of giving rise to an impres

sion that there was a difference of opi- | powers of the Committee would be connion among their Lordships in regard fined to statutes that were appealed to the desirability of legislation for the against, either through the Queen in improvement of dwellings of agricultural Council or by an Address from either labourers in Ireland and Scotland, he House of Parliament. It would also begged to withdraw the Motion for the have the power to revise any statute second reading. which might be consequentially affected by the amendment of another statute. He thought sufficient ground for the Bill

Amendment and original motion and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

METROPOLITAN OPEN SPACES ACT (1877) AMENDMENT BILL.

(The Lord Mount Temple.)

would be furnished in the fact that out of 100 statutes framed by the Oxford Commission, and 25 by the Cambridge, only two had been finally approved down to the present time.

(NO. .164) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Read--(The Lord President.) ing read.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."

LORD MOUNT TEMPLE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, explained that its object was to enable certain trustees and others, owners of inclosed grounds in the Metropolis, to enter into arrangements with public bodies to throw them open for the recreation of the people.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of

the Whole House To-morrow.

PATRIOTIC FUND BILL.-(No. 183.) (The Earl of Northbrook.)

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Read

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." | ing read. -(The Lord Mount Temple.)

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAM-
BRIDGE (STATUTES) BILL.

(The Lord President.)

(NO. 178.) SECOND READING.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK, ín moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the necessity for the measure was explained in the last Report of the Commissioners of the fund, which showed that although a surplus was shown on the face of the statements of assets and liabilities at the end of 1879, certain liabilities had not been taken into account, for which it

Order of the Day for the Second Read- was necessary to make provision. When ing read.

the Report came into the hands of the Secretary of State for War communications were entered into with the Com

EARL SPENCER, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that in 1877 the Universities Act estab-missioners, and the result was the Bill lished the Universities Committee of now before their Lordships. Being, no the Privy Council, whose duty it was to doubt, desirous to extend the benefits of consider any opposed statute framed by the fund as widely as possible, the Comthe University Commissioners of Oxford missioners had undertaken more than and Cambridge, and, if such a statute they were justified in undertaking from should require amendment, to return it a pecuniary point of view. They had, to the Commission for alteration. The therefore, been obliged to consider powers of the Commission, unless they which of their benevolent projects must were renewed, would cease this year; be sacrificed. After communication with and, consequently, there would be no the Admiralty and the War Office, it means of amending opposed statutes appeared to the Commissioners imposframed by the Commissioners. The sible to continue the boys' school at Bill now before their Lordships was Wandsworth; and, accordingly, the intended to remedy this inconvenience. school would be sold, and the proceeds It would give the Universities Com-would be used in aid of the general mittee of the Privy Council the same power of revision as was now possessed by the Commission itself. The revising

assets of the fund. The Commissioners had also decided to make considerable reductions in their office

expenses,

hoping, by that course, to relieve themselves of liabilities to the extent of some £20,000. Such changes, in fact, would be made as would result in the solvency of the fund. Probably there would be a surplus, and, if so, it would be treated as a fund for the relief of the widows and children of officers and men of the Army, Navy, and Royal Marines, who might have lost their lives in war, or by accident or disease contracted in the Service. The Bill empowered the Commissioners to sell the school at Wandsworth, and authorized the use of any surplus funds for the purposes which he had explained.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" -(The Earl of Northbrook.)

mittee was composed of honourable men, although their work did not come much before the public. They were men who had served the State in the Army and the Navy, or as Inspectors of schools, or who were members of the Legal Profession. A great deal of the work had been prepared and decided by the previous Commission. He agreed that the Commission had made a mistake in enlarging the boys' school. The sum originally set apart to accumulate for the boys' school only contemplated an endowment for 100 boys. But, though it was a sanguine estimate to think that there were funds enough to endow such a school for 200, the decision had not been come to without careful considera

tion and an able Report. A great deal had been said about the expenses of the office; but the estimate of the expenditure under this head did not exceed £5 per cent of the fund they had to admi

THE DUKE OF SOMERSET enumerated the names of the eminent men who served on the Commission when first appointed, and reminded their Lordships that the Commissioners ap-nister. The old Commissioners had pointed a Financial and Executive Committee. The embarrassments of the fund had arisen, in a great measure, from the original Commission itself, which left a great deal to its Secretary, who was once or twice reprimanded by the Commissioners. In the year 1865, when he (the Duke of Somerset) was at the Admiralty, the matter came before him; and, considering that the affairs of the Commission had been again mismanaged, he moved that the Secretary be dismissed. The Commissioners did eventually dismiss the Secretary, but gave him a pension of £300 a-year. He (the Duke of Somerset) then said he would not remain on the Commission, and he left it. One error was in starting the boys' school, 200 boys instead of 100, for which there were not sufficient funds. He thought the present Bill would be efficient for its purpose and useful. There was a common misapprehension that only the income of the fund ought to be spent; but that was not the original intention. It was provided, in the first instance, for the widows and children of those who had fallen in the Crimean War, and it was expected that principal and income would have been distributed in the course of a few years.

EARL NELSON said, that, as he had been a Member of the Executive Committee since last August, he wished to combat certain misrepresentations which had been spread abroad. That Com

The Earl of Northbrook

found it necessary to keep up the school by filling up the vacancies from children of soldiers who were not at the Crimean War; but that was necessary till more fitting cases occurred, and as the regular vacancies were from 30 to 40 every year it was easy to meet fresh cases. He pointed out that several children of those killed in the late wars in Afghanistan and South Africa and from the Captain and Eurydice accidents had been admitted to the school or had been offered vacancies. The general statement which had gone abroad was that the Royal Commissioners, about this time last year, left the fund in a great deficit-something like £150,000-and really knew nothing about it. This deficit was classed under four different headings. The first sum was £60,000. That was reckoned as a debt, when it really was a capital sum which would be required efficiently to endow a boys' school; but they were in no sense bound to let the interest of the original endowment accumulate, and they were at liberty to devote this interest to the support of the school whenever they chose to do so. The next item was a sum of £32,000 for an extra allowance of 28. a-week to unmarried widows after attaining the age of 60; but the arrangement with regard to it was merely tentative. Instead of being a debt of £32,000, it represented an expenditure of £1,000 a-year, which they had taken care could not be in

creased, and would be decreased as the widows died out. Another item was £25,000 for a convalescent home at Margate; but this again was only a temporary arrangement, and they were able to close the school, and so they wiped out the charge altogether within six months. There was another charge of £35,000, which they had set apart for the education of Roman Catholic chil

dren. They acknowledged that to be a debt, and the only way to meet it was from the endowment and the closing of the boys' school altogether. He maintained that the charge in connection with the expenses of the office, and the other charges made against the Commissioners, were founded upon imperfect knowledge. He would only add that he heartily accepted the Bill; indeed, the Royal Commissioners had been continually asking for their numbers to be filled up, and in their last Report had specially pointed out the desirability of having the girls' school managed by a Governing Body of its own. And since last August the House Committee had had enlarged powers with that object, an arrangement which had operated well.

LORD WAVENEY said, he had no fault to find with the Bill, particularly with the Preamble, which stated that the Patriotic Fund had been administered in accordance with the Commission from Her Majesty. Whatever there might have been of excess, there had been no shortcomings, and the confidence placed in the Commissioners was justified. There were many circumstances which required careful consideration and handling when they had to deal with the claims of rival religious denominations. He was sorry Lord Howard of Glossop was not present. That noble Lord was always foremost in urging the claims of his coreligionists, and he could tell their Lordships that every suspicion of unfairness was guarded against. He himself now stood alone of all who were the Members of the first Committee. They who commenced the work had passed away, and he might say they were men well known in the works of peace and war, and highly competent to carry on the management of such a fund. It was well that the public should remember that during the course of administration 3,789 widows of Crimean soldiers were supported out of the funds, and that 6,940 children of soldiers had been

trained in the ways of improvement and education. Care had been taken that the fund should not be wasted on unworthy objects, and that worthy objects should not be refused the benefit of them. With regard to the boys' school, so far from the original intention being to make an extravagant establishment, it was of the roughest description.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

REMOVAL TERMS (SCOTLAND) BILL. (The Earl of Camperdown.) (NO. 184.) SECOND READING. Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the object of that Bill was to provide a more convenient term of entering upon, and removal from, land and heritages in any Parliamentary or police burgh. The Bill had received material alterations in its course through the other House; and if their Lordships would agree to the second reading, he would take care to bring up an Amendment on the third reading which would bring the Preamble into greater harmony with the provisions of the Bill.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." -(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD WATSON said, he admitted that at present there was some inconvenience felt in Scotland owing to the customary terms of entry and removal not being coincident with the legal terms; and that Bill was endeavouring, therefore, to deal with a difficult question. At present the legal terms were the 15th of May and 11th of November; but in different parts of the country neither of those dates coincided with the customary terms, and the result was that a tenant leaving a house or farm in one district could not enter into possession of a new house or farm in another district without some loss of time. The scope of the Bill was limited to police, Royal, or Parliamentary burghs; but, in point of fact, the limits intended to be covered by the Royal, Parliamentary, or police boundary would not cover all houses, and the consequence would be that a large portion of the

difficulty would still remain to be dealt with. He also objected to the time of notice given in the case of a four months' letting, the result of which might be that a man who went into a house in February could not be turned out in May. He thought it was very dangerous to deal with this matter piecemeal, and he would ask the noble Earl whether it was worth while going further with a Bill of this nature; whether it would not be advisable to withdraw the present Bill, and bring forward a more extended one next Session ?

amount paid annually to Messrs. Mead and Company for watering Rotten Row; and, whether there can be furnished to the House a detailed copy of the contract with that firm for the performance of this duty, including when such contract was made, and the duration of the contract?

MR. SHAW LEFEVRE, in reply, said, that the contract for watering Hyde, St. James's, and the Green Parks for the present year was £790. The contract was only taken for a year, and was open to competition.

RETIREMENT OF ARMY OFFICERS. MAJOR GENERAL BURNABY, who read his Question in full, amid considerable interruption, asked the Secretary of State for War, If the following statement is substantially correct, viz. :—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in reply, said, he had not failed to re- ARMY ORGANIZATION-COMPULSORY gard the objections. He thought it was a question it was desirable to bring before Parliament; but at that late period of the Session he must say if the noble and learned Lord would not persist in his objection to the second reading, he would consult with those who were responsible for the measure, and see if it was advisable to proceed further with it

now.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a.

House adjourned at Seven o'clock,
till To-morrow, a quarter
before Five o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Thursday, 28th July, 1881.

MINUTES.]-SELECT COMMITTEE - Report-
Contagious Diseases Acts [No. 351].
SUPPLY-considered in Committee-CIVIL SER-
VICE ESTIMATES-Class II.-SALARIES AND
EXPENSES OF CIVIL DEPARTMENTS.

PUBLIC BILLS Second Reading Wild Birds

Protection Act, 1880, Amendment [226]. Committee-Report-Summary Procedure (Scotland) Amendment [216]. Considered as amended-Land Law (Ireland) [225]; Public Works Loans [211]. Withdrawn - Lunacy Law Amendment (recomm.) [192]; Poor Removal (Ireland) [89].

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QUESTIONS.

10

METROPOLIS-THE PARKS-COST OF
WATERING HYDE, ST. JAMES'S, AND

THE GREEN PARKS.

MR. LOWTHER asked the First -Commissioner of Works, What is the Lord Watson

"Many Colonels have asked the Secretary of State for War to define their exact position and income on compulsory retirement, inasmuch as they wish to understand at once, whether it is better for them to hold office and appointment up to the latest date offered, or to retire on their 59th birthday. The only reply, so far, has been that on their compulsory retirement they will be informed of the amount of pension, &c. which will be granted;"

and, if he can state to the House what will be the exact financial position of such of those officers who held saleable commissions on the 1st of November 1871, when their time comes for compulsory retirement from their Regiment or from the Army?

Any

MR. CHILDERS: Sir, I am sorry the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have taken the trouble to read his Question. It is one of a very ordinary character, and appears in full on the Paper. In reply to the first part of the Question of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I have to say that the paragraph in the newspaper which he has quoted does not state the whole case. colonel, who may either retire at once or wait until he is compulsorily retired, can ascertain exactly the retired pay he can now get, and the formula for calculating the rate of compulsorily retired pay; but it may be impossible in many cases to calculate now the exact amount of the latter, which will depend on the circumstances at the time of his retirement with reference to non-employment, and also to the prospects of reaching the

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