LORD CARLINGFORD said, he did not think the Amendment of Mr. Parnell to the clause was quite so wonderful as the noble Marquess seemed to fancy. It was evidently constructed on the analogy of Clause 12, and the whole raison d'étre of it was that it did follow that analogy. Clause 12 provided that when any proceedings of a landlord against a tenant were pending in a County Court, the Court should have power to stay those proceedings within certain limits in order to enable the tenant to have an opportunity of availing himself of this Bill. It was thought that when proceedings were pending in the Court above, the same opportunity should be given with certain restrictions to the tenant. The House would observe that the Court was empowered to impose such terms on the applicant as it might think fit. For instance, the Court would be perfectly at liberty to require the tenant to pay half his rent into Court or to give security for the payment of it. The Government, however, would have no objection to insert words of limitation like "If the Court shall think the application reasonable." The landlord could not be injured by the clause; because, the moment he issued his writ, and lodged it in the hands of the sheriff, the land was at once bound against all other creditors. they would only die by a process similar, English debtors. He thought he had to that by which they had received their said enough to show that the Amendbirth. At the very end of the Report, ment, which was hastily brought in by in the House of Commons, Mr. Parnell Mr. Parnell, without Notice, at the last suddenly moved this singular pendant moment, and accepted by the Governto the clause, and obtained its accept- ment, ought not to be allowed by their ance by the Government. It was a most Lordships to form part of this measure. extraordinary clause. By its operation any tenant who had not paid his rent to his landlord, or his interest to his banker, or who had not satisfied his mortgagee, or who had not paid his tradesman, would be able to defer any action taken against him by a creditor by the simple process of applying for a judicial rent to be fixed. The respite thereby gained would not be small or unimportant. Besides the immorality of the proposal, it threw upon the Land Commissioners work far in excess even of the labours of Hercules, much less of those exalted natures, notwithstanding that they were already over-burdened with an amount of business which he (the Marquess of Salisbury) would say would result, as one of the first phenomena of the Bill, in a hopeless dead-lock. A further delay might be interposed if the debtor were ingenious enough to induce his friends also to apply for judicial rents to the already overworked Assistant Commissioner of the district. By that process there would speedily be a general suspension of payment of debts throughout Ireland. He believed in Eastern countries, on the occasion of any great public rejoicing, it was sometimes the habit of despotic Sovereigns to announce that all debts should be remitted. He did not know whether such an announcement was received with as much rejoicing amongst the creditors as amongst the debtors; but on the principle of satisfying everybody, considering that the debtors were much more numerous than the creditors, he could imagine that the Government could produce no more popular measure than one announcing to all debtors in Ireland that for six months or two years they need not pay their debts. He ventured, however, to claim justice for England. If these benefits were to be given to Ireland, he thought it would be found that a very large number of people on this side of St. George's Channel would be of opinion that this legislation ought not to be confined to Ireland, and would press Her Majesty's Government to take into consideration the condition of the oppressed The Marquess of Salisbury THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, the provision was fenced round with so many safeguards that it could not very well act injuriously. EARL CAIRNS supported the Amendment, on the ground that it would be a startling innovation on all previous legal arrangements to confer the extraordinary power which the Government had consented to insert in the clause at the last moment. He remembered only one precedent of this kind. It occurred two centuries ago, when the Exchequer was shut up, and the people could not be paid. The course was then taken of applying to the Court of Chancery for an injunction to prevent any creditor from recovering his debts from the bankers. Under the clause, an appli 989 Vaccination Act, 1867— {AUGUST 5, 1881} Awards to Public Vaccinators. 990 cation might be made not for the bond fide | per cent. per annum; and, if so, whepurpose of obtaining a judicial rent, but ther, considering that after many years for the collateral purpose of preventing discussions and great expenditure the debtors from having their debts recovered mortality is still so large, he will take from them. In the extreme hurry in steps to make very searching inquiry which the clause was drawn, by a curious into the subject? oversight, it seemed to have been overlooked that it did not relate to proceedings in bankruptcy. Consequently, a landlord might make a tenant a bankrupt, and then he would be perfectly free from the operation of this Bill. Amendment agreed to. Clause, as amended, agreed to. The Report of the amendments to be received on Monday next; and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No 204.) House adjourned at a quarter before HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, 5th August, 1881. MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee III.-LAW AND JUSTICE. THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON : Sir, it is true that the mortality for the years 1878 and 1879 in the gaols of Bengal, Madras, Bombay, the Punjab, and Central Provinces ranged from 8 in Bengal to 12 per cent in the Punjab. My attention has already been directed, among other matters, to the mortality of Indian gaols. I have communicated by telegraph with the Viceroy, and am now awaiting a promised despatch on the subject. Meanwhile, I have requested a Committee of the Council of India to investigate the Returns on the subject which are already at the India Office. INDIA-MADRAS CIVIL SERVICE. MR. GIBSON asked the Secretary of State for India, Whether he has received a Copy of the reply of the Government of India to the communication of the Government of Madras of April 1880, forwarding the Memorials of certain members of the Madras Civil Service complaining of their present position and future prospects; and, if so, whether he will state the nature of the reply; but if no copy has been received, whether, with regard to the delay which has already taken place, and to prevent further delay, he will communicate with the Government of India by telegraph, so that the desired information may be furnished at an early date? THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, further Correspondence on the subject has been received. It appears that the Government of India are awaiting further information from the Madras Government asked for so long since as January, 1879, and on its receipt promised to lose no time in considering whether any, and, if so, what, measures should be adopted to meet the complaints preferred by certain members of the Madras Civil Service. I am afraid that decision will not be made known before the rising of the House. VACCINATION ACT, 1867-AWARDS TO INDIA-MORTALITY IN INDIAN GAOLS. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL asked the Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true, as stated in the "Times" of PUBLIC VACCINATORS. August 1, that the mortality in the MR. BURT asked the President of gaols of the principal provinces of India the Local Government Board, Whether, has for two years averaged from 8 to 11 as the awards for vaccination (paid under section 5 of 30 and 31 Vic c 84) are now very considerable in amount, and as they are given year after year to certain public vaccinators, though the Act prescribes that they shall be paid for "number and quality" only, he will state what is the officially recognised principle upon which these awards are given, in addition to the ordinary salaries of the public vaccinators? MR. DODSON: Sir, the principle upon which these awards are given is that an Inspector of the Board should be satisfied in every case, by a careful personal examination of the arms of a considerable number of recently-vaccinated children, that the results are up to the prescribed standard of meritnamely, that the scars should cover a certain area and be thoroughly well marked. Moreover, the Inspector is required to see that the public vaccinator has been regular and punctual in his attendance at the vaccination station at the appointed times, and that the cases have been duly certified and registered. If it is found that these conditions have not been complied with, the award is withheld. STATE OF IRELAND-JULY CELEBRATIONS, CO. DOWN. LORD ARTHUR HILL asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been drawn to a proclamation issued at Downpatrick, county Down, and dated 11th July 1881, prohibiting the erection "of any arch of whatever description across any street, lane, or road within the boundary of said borough;" whether such proclamation was issued consequent upon sworn information to the effect that a breach of the peace would probably ensue if such arch were erected; and, whether he will cause to be laid upon the Table of the House all Correspondence bearing upon the subject? STATE OF IRELAND-MURDER OF POLICE-CONSTABLE LINTON. LORD ARTHUR HILL asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, in the case of Police Constable Linton, who was murdered in Church Street, Loughrea, county Galway, at about 10.20 p.m. on the 24th of last month, the authorities are prosecuting any inquiries as to the circumstances under which the deceased came by his death; and, whether any, and, if any, what, reward has been offered by the Government for the apprehension of the person by whom Police Constable Linton was murdered? MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, that the authorities were making all possible inquiries into the case referred to, and that two persons had been arrested on sworn informations. As yet no reward had been offered; but, if it was found necessary, there would, of course, be no hesitation in offering a reward. SOUTH KENSINGTON MUSEUM-THE PLANE TREE. MR. MITCHELL HENRY asked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether there is any intention to cut down the beautiful plane tree which stands opposite the old entrance to the South Ken MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, he found that the magistrates of Downpatrick, acting on sworn informations, issued a proclamation on the 11th of July prohibiting the erection of arches of any description within the boundary of the town. The noble Lord was doubt-sington Museum? less aware that the erection of arches in Downpatrick on the 15th of August last gave rise to rioting. He did not know that there was any Correspondence to produce. Mr. Burt MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: Sir, there is no intention to cut down the tree to which my hon. Friend refers, and I have given directions that it shall not be subject to maltreatment. I may observe, however, that if the plans for the extension of South Kensington Museum, decided upon in 1876, be carried out, and if a frontage be added to the blank wall of the Art Library recently erected, it is difficult to see how the plane tree can be preserved; but, at the rate at which money has been voted for the South Kensington Museum during the last few years, it will be about 20 years before the period of danger is reached. ANCIENT MONUMENTS (RESOLUTION MARCH 11TH). SIR JOHN LUBBOCK asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he proposed to take any, and, if so, what, steps to provide for the better preservation of Ancient Monuments, in accordance with the Resolution of the House of the 11th of March? MR. GLADSTONE, in reply, said, that a wish had been expressed by the House that any plan submitted to the Government with regard to the preservation of ancient monuments should be carefully considered by the Government. No such plan had, however, been submitted, and he must confess that he had not been in a position, nor did he know when he should be, to undertake what was expected from the Government. Seriously, he hoped that, after what had happened, some plan would be brought forward to which the Government might be able to give careful attention. NEW ARMY ORGANIZATION THE ROYAL WARRANT-RETIREMENT. MR. HEALY (for Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR) asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether similar conditions of retirement will be sanctioned for the Captain and Lieutenants of Orderlies, A.H.C., who do not wish to serve under the new Royal Warrant as Hospital Quartermasters, to those granted by the Royal Warrant of the 12th July 1878 to the Assistant Commissaries who declined to accept the position of Quartermaster in the Commissariat Department? MR. CHILDERS: No, Sir; the circumstances are entirely different. The Assistant Commissaries were largely reduced in number, and were no longer eligible for promotion in the Department, and it was reasonable to offer them, under such circumstances, faciliVOL. COLXIV. [THIRD SERIES.] ties on a liberal scale for leaving the Department. This is not the case with respect to the officers referred to by the hon. Member. PARLIAMENT THE HOUSE OF COM MONS-CONDUCT OF PUBLIC BUSI- MR. RATHBONE asked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government will consider the necessity of bringing before the House, at the commencement of next Session, proposals for amendment of the Rules for the conduct of the Business of the House? MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I am sure my hon. Friend will understand, with his knowledge of Parliamentary proceedings, that the Government are not able to give any definite pledge, in the present state of their knowledge upon the question, as to what Business it may be their duty to submit to Parliament at the commencement of next Session; but, undoubtedly, subject to reservations which are necessary as to everything in the future, I cannot hesitate to say, with increasing strength of conviction from every week's and month's experience, that the question of the re-organization of the arrangements of the House in such a way as to restore it for I must use the expression-to its full efficiency, has become a question of the very first order, not only in point of magnitude, but in point of claim to precedence. I may, perhaps, Sir, while I am addressing you, say, with regard to the Boer Convention, on which I spoke yesterday, that the Paper has been presented to Parliament, and it will be distributed, I believe, very shortly. I do not know what day it will be distributed, but copies of it are to be obtained in the Agenda Office by anyone who wishes to see it. I also wish to refer to a Question put to me yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. Hubbard), on which the right hon. Baronet opposite offered some observation, with regard to the Bill for the conversion of certain Stocks into certain Annuities. I am very much disposed to regret that there should be any difficulty or any burden upon the time of the House in respect to the passing of that Bill in its integrity. If I am pressed about it, with a desire to escape from all unnecessary labour, there is this to be said. There is only one portion of 2 K hands. MR. R. N. FOWLER: I have to thank the hon. Member for his courtesy in deferring this Question from yesterday until to-day to suit my convenience. If I take any notice of the letter it is not from any respect to Mr. Bradlaugh, whose admission to this House I have always opposed, and shall continue to oppose by the best means in my power. It is because I think it would be inconsistent with the duty of any Member of this House to interfere with the police in the discharge of a difficult duty, which I may say, from what I saw, they discharged with very great moderation and forbearance. All I have to say is, that I never used the words in question, and I emphatically deny the statement made in the letter read to the House. that Bill which is of great practical in- and I shall leave the matter, Sir, in your fluence to pass, with the view of relieving the Exchequer from unnecessary charge with relation to the conversion in Stock of £7,500,000 of Exchequer Bonds, on which we are paying 3 per cent. The portion of the Bill which relates to that I should feel myself bound, in any circumstances, to go forward with. There is also another enactment of the Bill for the purpose of curing a legal flaw which has been discovered in the Act of last year relating to the Savings Bank Fund. If it is desired that such a course should be taken, I would, in lieu of going forward with the Bill as it stands, be willing to read the Bill a second time, and pass it through Committee pro formd with the view of striking out all that relates to the larger function with regard to conversion, and reduce it to the provision I have now spoken of. If I find that is so, I will take the stages of the Bill accordingly. PARLIAMENT-PRIVILEGE-MR. BRAD LAUGH. SOUTH AFRICA-THE TRANSVAAL- SIR HENRY HOLLAND asked whether the Papers to be laid before the House with respect to the Boer ConvenHercules Robinson to the Natives, which tion would include the address of Sir he thought might have an important bearing upon the construction of the Convention? MR. LABOUCHERE: I apprehend, Sir, that I shall be in Order in laying before you the conduct of a Member of this House within the precincts of the House. I need not say I refer to the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. R. N. Fowler). I have received the following letter from my Colleague Office any account of the receipt of that in the representation of Northamp-Paper officially in this country. What ton: “20, Circus Road, St. John's Wood, N.W. August 4. "My dear Labouchere,-Among the exces sively painful incidents of yesterday there is one matter which I cannot help bringing to your notice. Alderman R. N. Fowler (London) followed me downstairs, and at the door leading on to Palace-yard, just as the police and other officials were forcibly ejecting me, I heard Mr. Fowler say, Kick him out, and the people near on this hooted at Mr. Fowler. Surely, as this took place within the precincts of the House, and as I was debarred by my being in the hold of 12 men from retorting as this deserved, and am also debarred from protecting myself in my place in Parliament, I may appeal to you to bring this matter before the House. If the House should hold that this did not occur within its precincts I shall at once summon Mr. Alderman Fowler for endeavouring to excite to a breach of the peace. "Yours very sincerely, "C. BRADLAUGH." MR. GLADSTONE, in reply, said, he had not heard from the Colonial he had just said had reference not to Papers in relation to the Transvaal generally, but only to the Convention. They had received a copy of the full text of the Convention, but had not had time to lay it on the Table. He quite agreed with the hon. Baronet that the address of Sir Hercules Robinson ought to be presented to Members immediately on its receipt. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL asked what was the extent of territory to be handed over to the Boers? MR. GLADSTONE begged to refer the hon. Member to the Convention. The hon. Member would find there authentic terms, which he was unable to supply from memory. He might say, however, that it was not thought that there would be any advantage in retaining the slip of territory between Zulu I need not add anything to that letter, land and the Transvaal, Mr. Gladstone |