DIALOGUE ON THE POPULAR OBJECTIONS AGAINST THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH, BETWEEN THE D ARCHBISHOP OF D -N, AND which, by nature, you possess, cultivated to the highest perfection during a long life of unwearied industry-the experience of such a mind, attained by the continued and anxious investigation of the interests of the Church of England, and particularly the Irish branch of it, induce me to transgress ordinary impediments, and to request that your lordship will indulge me with a discussion upon the subject I have proposed. BISHOP-I cannot have the least objection to enter upon the proposed question; particularly when solicited as I have been by your grace, from whom if I in anything dissent, I entertain the highest respect for your various talents, and venerate the unclouded integrity that adorns your life. However, I profess that I cannot see much advantage as likely to arise from such a discussion. But I am most willing to give my opinion on any question that may be proposed. At present the matter is stated too vaguely to grapple with. ARCHBISHOP-It has long been an anxious wish of mine, to hear your lordship's opinions upon the present state of the Church of England and Ireland. If there be some advantage, in a free state, gained to the public good by the opposition which exists among those who defend the different sides of any great religious or political question, for thus, perhaps, the truth is elicited, and a middle and wiser course is eventually pursued; yet the delay that occurs in arriving at the decision which is ultimately acted upon, is not the smallest amount of evil which arises from this opposition. If public men were all philosophers, and if private views and objects did not cast a mist before the eyes, through which public measures were indistinctly inspected, the march to perfection, so far as here it is attainable, would be more rapid. But, constituted as our nature is, such disinterestedness cannot, as a general principle, be expected to actuate the minds of those who guide by their example, or control by their knowledge and wisdom, the mass of ARCHBISHOP-I am very thankful mankind. If, however, there be some for your lordship's ready compliance exceptions to this selfishness—if a few with my request. I should wish, howonly, in contemplating our present ever, to guard your lordship against affairs, are moved by singleness of the supposition that I entertain any purpose, to unravel the complex difficul- views respecting the Established ties which surround their discussion, we Church, in direct opposition to those may expect to find those persons among you may have formed. Indeed, I am the ministers of religion, from whose not so fully acquainted with them, as minds, speculations of a character too to acknowledge an agreement with, mundane ought to be removed. Es- or to profess dissent from them. And pecially may we hope to find them the principal reason of my seeking this among the heads of the church, who, interview, is, to ascertain how far we generally, are elevated to their digni- coincide, to endeavour, if we should fied station from the supposed posses- disagree, to induce your lordship to sion of superior attainments. More assist me in the advancement of my divine attractions, assisted by time, opinions, if satisfactory reasons do not have from them drained off the lees of appear for their refutation; and at the intemperate feelings, leaving the mind same time, freely to open my mind to pure and calm for the consideration of all the arguments that may be alleged the subjects that may engage it. To against them, and if I cannot overturn your lordship, therefore, I turn with them, at once to be guided by your much anxiety. The great abilities lordship, and adopt whatever course may be deemed expediert for their propagation and general adoption. I am free to confess, within a few years not only the aspect, but the nature of public opinion has been so much altered, that all our institutions must require some other mode of defence than an advocacy of the theories under which they were originally established. I have no desire to discuss these changes, nor the value of them. But public opinion having produced them, will necessarily continue to put forth all its energy, until everything in the state that is opposed to it be remodelled or removed, so that there may not be any institution obtruding itself into notice, as affording a practical example of its inefficiency to complete its task of adjusting public measures and establishments to its authority. I do not acknowledge myself an advocate for driving these opinions to their full extent, and of commencing a new arrangement of all our institutions, according to its direction; but I cannot see, how it is to be opposed, and if this be true, by what means the Established Church can continue in its present position. BISHOP-Still I should wish your grace to set down the point at which we shall commence our discussion. The way in which it is now proposed, lays open the entire question of the late approximation to revolutionary opinions in the public mind. Your grace indeed refuses to consider these changes, or their causes. While you neither express an approval or disapprobation of them, your grace likewise appears to hesitate in acknowledging yourself an advocate of permitting public opinion, without some restraint or check, to re-model, according to its wildest theories, all the institutions of the state. Unless public opinion is to be not only our ruler, but our law, this restraint must be placed somewhere, and at some time; otherwise all that is perfect, and good, and useful, will be confounded with what may require regeneration. For public opinion, unless directed, and judiciously restrained, becomes public clamour and headstrong fanaticism. Indeed it requires an accurate judgment to prescribe the limits of each. Therefore it appears to me essential, from the preliminary observations of your grace, to endeavour VOL. III. to trace the causes which have given within these few years such vitality and vigour to public opinion, and so far as those causes emanate from justice, truth, and prudence, to permit them, undisturbed, to effectuate their objects; but if they have originated in injustice, falsehood, and folly, the duty of legislators, and of every patriotic citizen too, is to prevent the evil tendencies of that which has arisen from them. Now effectually and permanently to do this, we must endeavour to purify the sources from which it is derived. Thus it becomes necessary to discover what these sources are; as, by examining these, we shall be enabled to ascertain the value of the consequences that may ensue from their exertion. For the visible acts that emanate from it we always investigate with a certain degree of prejudice, as they may be opposed to previous views or immediate interests, while we can analyze their causes with a calmer judgment. Public opinion in England, within the last twenty years, has derived its power not from any inherent necessity for its being called into action, for, if this had been the source of its existence, some great unredressed public evil would have justified its exhibition. On the contrary, it derived its power from the fault of our governors. When once the principle was admitted that the ministers of the king might league together for the administration of public affairs, yet individually differ from each other on the most important subject which could engage their deliberations, public opinion was at once invested with all its present power. It matters nothing as to the effects, its distant and now unperceived effects, whether the question thus left in abeyance ought or ought not to have been settled as it has been. The means which led to its final arrangement established the principle that the maintenance of unanimity and truth is of lighter consideration than the procurement of false peace. The pernicious tendency of this concession was at once visible, and every day exhibits stronger evidence of its mischievous operation. For every question that has since been entertained, is immediately canvassed, not as to its tendency to procure permanent advantage, but whe 2 D ther it will secure immediate applause. The operation of this principle more universally prevails than flippant observers perceive, or its selfish patrons are willing to admit. It has already pervaded all the important acts of our legislature. The religion of the mature the education of the young, are subjected to its power. Commerce has confessed its necessity, the daily transactions between man and man, and the endearing obligations of neighbourly intercourse, are palsied by its touch. The policy of Jewish priests,* and the selfishness of the Pharisees, are the chief ingredients in this principleexpediency and the hope of a speedy return. For now it is a political axiom, we will take care of ourselves-let posterity follow the same rule. Thus is the government of the nation at once renounced by its governors; they pass it over to the mob; they appear, indeed, to hold the reigns of government, but they do not direct them. The character of the nation, as a bold, free, and independent people, is altered. What is good is not pursued for its merit, nor evil avoided for its mischief. The one is sought and the other shunned, because temporary advantage may arise from the adoption of virtue and the rejection of vice. But vice would be pursued, and virtue deserted, if present struggles accompanied an adherence to the nobler policy. Thus is at once relinquished the principle— the birthright of Englishmen, and the sole fountain of all her blessings, political and religious, the pursuit of what is right for its own sake, leaving the means of liberation from the difficulties that may ensue, to be supplied by the gracious hand of providence. Would expediency have left us in possession of Magna Charta? Would expediency have produced the Reformation? Would expediency have placed the Prince of Orange on the throne of England? These reasons will show your grace, that we cannot, advantageously to the interests of the Church, examine her present situation, in reference to the influence of popular clamour. If I consent to commence the discussion here, we shall only debate about the best mode of applying the principle I condemn. To John xi. 50. act wisely, we should endeavour to place the Church upon her true foundation, to explain the unsoundness of the objections that exist against her establishment, and having done so, to call upon our governors to protect her interests and promote her prosperity. It is an unalterable axiom of my political creed, that the sovereign and his council have duties to perform, paramount to any external influence; and if these duties, founded in justice and constitutional right, cannot be performed without the sacrifice of oaths, of honor, and of law, the throne of the one ought to be abdicated, and the high offices of the other at once relinquished. ARCHBISHOP-I have not interrupted your lordship, because I have listened, with great pleasure, to what you have advanced. But the strain of observations into which you have fallen, would not meet the object I had in view in seeking this interview. That object is plainly this. By the operation of causes, which were not controlled, and now cannot be resisted, it is important to every calm and religious mind, and to all the friends of the Established Church, to consider what means can be adopted for her preservation. If any means can be proposed, though in other matters individuals may differ, all who love the church ought to unite in a bond of affiliation to advance them. BISHOP-I still think your grace would begin at the wrong end of the question. The practicability of maintaining the church against an invasive foe, and adopt the means of doing this, is no doubt important, after we have decided the previous question, on what grounds ought the Church of England to be maintained. Thus, instead of applying the principle of expediency to the church, and regulating all her interests, according to the crude suggestions of popular clamour, we shall be engaged in exposing the futility of the objections that are urged against her establishment. Without this preliminary discussion, we leave our foes without dispute to rail at the church as an institution opposed to present improvements. Their reproaches against her derive all their pungency and power from the asser Luke vi. 34, 35. tion, that her foundations were laid in popish times, before the minds of the people of England had attained that elevation of free thinking which would enable them to choose a system of ministerial instruction, more in consonance with the feelings which now direct them, in adjusting the different departments of the state. Many of the unreflecting friends of the establishment listlessly consent to view her position in the same light, and calculate that their utmost exertions can effect no more than erecting barriers to impede assault, and having timor ously resisted encroachment, to yield one defence after another. These subtle tactics of our enemies, and this ignorant zeal of our friends, at once deprive the church of her greatest strength. By the repeated annunciation of the unsuitableness of the church to the temper and improvements of present times, a host of allies are immediately attracted to the adoption of this senseless war-cry. Reformers, to be consistent, will abolish the church-infidels, to indulge their insatiate hatred of religion, will annihilate her-rebels, to advance nearer the throne, will desecrate her foundations -political economists, to gratify a cherished theory, will confiscate her possession-Protestant dissenters, to gather golden harvests from encreased congregations, will violate her-and Roman Catholics, to cherish ambition and the passion of revenge, will trample her learning and her piety, her ministers and her glory, in the dust. In the fury of this assault, the church stands unprotected, her soldiers aspiring to no loftier enterprise than shooting blunted arrows from her besieged bulwarks. The concession, though with apparent reluctance, appears to have been made that she must finally yield to popular pressure, and after a few seasons of ineffectual struggle, employed only to retard her demolition, she must fall at the feet of her enemies. This wicked, and base, and cowardly concession, produces this destructive effect, that every proposal which her enemies suggest is not canvassed as to its effect upon her stability, but whether its influence will accelerate too rapidly her decline. The sudden disorganization of an establishment in which so many various interests are represented, it might be dangerous to permit, as the perfidious policy of those who would betray her might rebound upon themselves. Thus, from the mode in which our friends are content to fight the battle of the church, her enemies, secure of victory, have only need of patience to obtain their reward. These observations will open to your grace's mind the views I entertain, as to the impolicy of our efforts being applied only to the means of resisting the warfare with which we are assailed. ARCHBISHOP-I acknowledge, my lord, that this view of the question had not before occurred to me. But even now I cannot perceive the advantage likely to arise from any decision we may adopt, as to whether the Church of England ought to be maintained. If we perfectly agreed on this point, as doubtless we do, yet our convictions on the subject would not tend to alter or to invigorate the proceedings of our advocates; and, what is worse, it would not diminish the unabating rancour of our foes. BISHOP-Your grace mistakes my object. I would not presume to urge any arguments in defence of my views, for the purpose of convincing your grace, believing that your penetration and attachment to the church have already discovered all that I could suggest, or my zeal enforce. But I understood your grace's object to be, to devise the best means of defending the church. The best means I conceive are, to show that she deserves to be defended, and thus establish the necessity of her existence. If this be done by a refutation of the objections that are urged against her, our governors are placed in this position, they either must support the church, or abandon her on principles which are untenable. If Protestant dissenters are deprived of all other objects except those which arise from selfish ambition if Roman Catholics can press no arguments against her establishment which are not founded in their hatred of the reformation, we shall provide, my lord, a much better defence for the church than making arrangements to meet one stratagem by the adoption of another. Her friends and her foes will then, at once, be separated-the object of every proposed plan of reformation will be brought to the touchstone of whether the proposer is a sincere friend or a secret foe; and thus the question will be decided, whether the Church of England is to stagger on, under the medicaments of quack reformers, or whether she ought to be nourished by royal favor openly and unambiguously, and placed by the homage of the learned, the protection of the powerful, and the authority of the law, beyond the reach of the factious and juggling tricks of two aspirant bodies. Thus the friends of the church will feel, as our ancestors did of old, an honest pride in defending her, and all concerned for her safety will emulate each other in restoring her to pristine health and vigour. ARCHBISHOP-This would, indeed, be a consummation devoutly to be wished. But how will our defence of the church produce this effect? BISHOP My Conviction is, that thousands of the friends of the church, and tens of thousands of her present enemies, do not understand the foundation on which she stands, and are therefore unconscious of the facility that exists of refuting all the objections that factious clamour vociferates against her Many of the nobles of our land, many of the representative senators are equally ignorant of this truth. If, therefore, we have ground to stand on, it is right to clear away the rubbish that hides it from view, and thus allow the city set upon the hill to be seen. The circulation of truth always confirms and invigorates friendship, and what is more useful, it abashes and emasculates hostility. ARCHBISHOP-But there are some popular arguments against the church, which no defence, founded even on the justest principles of reasoning, will ever prevent from being generally influential. BISHOP-I am not quite sure of that. Such irresistible popular arguments were once supposed to have existed against Christianity. Such are supposed to exist against kingly government. Yet the gospel has been adopted in every clime in which it has been preached, and monarchy is almost the universal form of government. But not to advocate and thus advance the cause of truth, because plausible sophistry may urge objections against it, would be to libel reason, and render almost useless the gift of speech. ARCHBISHOP-I confess that I am now exceedingly anxious to hear your lordship's refutation of these popular arguments. And that the results of your lordship's great experience and knowledge might be drawn out to advantage, I wish it were possible that some person who had been in the habit of advocating those delusive sophistries had an opportunity of bearing part in this discussion,-an office which I can inadequately perform, as they have always made no impression on my own mind. BISHOP-This task I must impose upon your grace, or at least some person must perform it; for I came here not expecting this discussion, and am therefore quite unprepared to be counsel for and against the prisoner. At best I shall make but a poor defence, but I must be excited to reply by hearing the objections stated as strongly as they can be. ARCHBISHOP-A thought has just occurred to me. I hope your lordship will not be annoyed at my mentioning it. Mr. O'Cl has appointed to call here about this hour, relative to some lands which he holds in the county of Kerry, under the University of Dublin, and a reference has been made to me as a visiter. If he consent to be present, I shall introduce him to your lordship, if you have no objection. BISHOP-I can have no objection to speak to any person whom your grace wishes to introduce in your own house, nor can I have any hesitation to defend principles which no sophistry can overturn. I can appropriately repeat the words of the unhappy Charles, "I have a good cause and a gracious God." The archbishop re-enters, accompanied by Mr. O'Cll. Allow me to present Mr. O'Connell to your lordship-the Bishop of L Mr. O'Connell. You are aware, Mr. O'C-11, of the conversation in which the bishop and I have been engaged, and as you have kindly promised to propose the objections you entertain against the Established Church, may I beg you will state them. Mr. O'C-LL-Though I have addressed as many assemblies of men as perhaps any person of ancient or modern times, yet it has never fallen to my lot to propose my opinions to any, under such circumstances as the present, nor to any individuals in your lordship's rank and profession. Yet as this strange interview has fallen in, |