Baylee: Chapter and verse? Oh, I have it, Isaiah xlv., 7] which says, "I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things." What does that mean? Dr. B. In that passage the Hebrew means "ills of life," and has no reference to moral evil. I. Do I understand you that God does not create “moral evil?” I. Has moral evil always existed? Dr. B. It has not. I. Is moral evil identical with sin? I. Does moral evil include sin? I. If moral evil includes sin, and if moral evil has not always existed, how can there have been an eternal continuation of sin, as mentioned by you in the early part of the evening? Dr. B. The eternal continuation is an eternity of finity. Creature eternity is a succession of endless periods which had a beginning. [In a subsequent answer Dr. Baylee asserted that he said "an endless succession of periods," and the Chairman corroborated Dr. B. "Iconoclast" understood it as here given, but was probably mistaken]. I. How can there have been an eternal continuation of sin, if sin has not always existed? Dr. B. There has not been. I. If there has not, how can "eternal damnation " be the penalty for an eternal continuance of sin which has not taken place? Dr. B. Eternal damnation is the future sequence of a continuance of sin. I. You said that before I was born I committed sin, that if I had never been born I should have been punished for that sin. I repeat my question with reference to such past sin, and without reference to future sin. Dr. B. Creature eternity is not to be compared with divine eternity. I. That is no answer; but which eternity did you mean when you used the word at first? Dr. B. Creature eternity. I. You have defined creature eternity to be a succession of endless periods which had a beginning. If the first period never ended, when would the second begin? Dr. B. The first period ends when the second begins. [Dr. Baylee at this stage gave the explanation before mentioned, as follows: I. What do you mean by end of an endless period? Dr. B. I said nothing so foolish. endless succession of periods.] I defined creature eternity as an I. If by creature eternity you mean an endless succession of periods, what do you mean by divine eternity? Dr. B. Without beginning or end. I. Do you believe, according to 1 Timothy, c. i. v. 17, that God is invisible; and according to c. vi. v. 16, that no man hath seen or can see God; and according to 1 John, c. iv. v. 12, that no man hath seen God at any time? Dr. B. I do. I. Do you also believe, according to Exodus, c. xxiv. v. 10, &c., that seventy-four persons all saw God at one time? Dr. B. I do. I. Am I to understand that you believe that God has not and cannot be seen, and that he has been seen? Do you thus believe? Dr. B. I do. I Is not that a contradiction? Dr. B. It is not. I Is the God, respecting whose being, attributes, and government you Intend to question me, the same God who, according to Genesis, c. xviii.. did eat calf dressed for him by Abraham, and who sought to kill Moses at an inn, as related in Exodus, c. iv. v. 24? Dr. B. He is. I. Do you believe that the God of the Bible is all-wise? I. Do you believe that he did not know whether the cry which had reached him from Sodom and Gomorrah was true or not, and that he went to see and to know? Dr. B. He knew perfectly well. I. I will read you Genesis, c. xviii. v. 20 and 21: "And the Lord said, because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because there sin is very grievous; "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." What do these words mean? If God did know, why did he say, "If not, I will know ?" Dr. B. It is a human method, teaching us that a good God answers as a wise man would. I. Are the words I have just read a divine revelation? Dr. B. They are. I. Why then do you call them a human method? Dr. B. Because God speaks to human beings in human language. I. Do you mean that an infallible Deity chooses a fallible and uncertain mode of expressing himself? Dr. B. He must speak to man in man's language if he desire to be understood. I. Did God make man's understandings? Dr. B. He did. I. Do you mean to say that God made man incapable of understanding anything but imperfect language? Dr. B. He gave man an understanding incapable of understanding the infinite. I. When the words "I know" and "I do not know" are placed together, do you understand any difference between them? Dr. B. When applied to man, they are opposite and contradictory; when applied to God, they are not; they are, then, different phases of the divine nature. I. Would it not have been as easy to understand if God had said I know, as to say he did not know? Dr. B. He did not say so. The Chairman here rose and said, Mr. Bradlaugh's time for putting questions has now expired, and it becomes Dr. Baylee's turn to question Mr. Bradlaugh respecting the being, attributes, and government of God, and the nature, circumstances, and responsibility of man. FIRST HOUR-SECOND EVENING. "Iconoclast." I will now read Deuteronomy, c. xxxii. v. 39, Deuteronomy, c. iv. v. 35. and "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." "Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him." Do you believe those texts? Dr. Baylee. I do. I That is, do you believe there is only one God? Dr. B. I do. I. I will now read the third chapter of Genesis, v. 22: "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever." To whom, and of whom do you think God spoke as "usf" Dr. B. The Father to the Son. L. Are there two? I. I will call your attention to Matt., c. xii. vv. 81 and 32. "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Do you believe that? Dr. B. I do. I. Then how, at the same time, do you believe in God's infinite mercy, when his mercy is limited in this instance at least? Dr. B. God's infinite attributes are finitely applied to finite creatures. I. Is that infinite which is limited? Dr. B. It is infinite in itself, finite in action, I. Is God's mercy finite in action? Dr. B. It is not, in the divine sense. I. How can a thing be infinite and not infinite at the same time? Dr. B. God's infinite mercy to a starving man does not give him an infinite loaf of bread. I. That is not an answer to my question. My question is, can a being be infinite and finite at the same time, and if so, how? Dr. B. Infinite in nature, limited in action. I. You say God's infinite mercy to a starving man does not give him an infinite loaf. Are the two-mercy and the loaf-the same? Dr. B. They are different. I. I again ask, can the same thing be infinite and finite at the same time? Dr. B. Infinite in nature, limited in action. I. Give me an instance. Dr. B. A despotic sovereign does not employ the whole of his power to arrest one subject. I. Is there any human sovereign who has power infinite in nature? I. Is there any analogy between a human being and God? I. Have you read the history of the Levite mentioned in Judges xix., who was travelling with his wife, and who being in danger of personal illtreatment from some of God's chosen people, to save himself, turned the poor defenceless woman out to the fury and lust of the mob, who ill-treated her so that, deserted and unsuccoured, she died, and in the morning was found dead with her hands upon the threshold of the door? Dr. B. I have. I. Do you not think that Levite's conduct unmanly, cowardly, and despicable in the extreme, in thus escaping from danger by putting a woman in his place? Dr. B. I do. I. Can you find me any text in the Bible where that Levite's conduct is condemned? "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." L Do you mean to assert that that verse has the slightest reference to the Levite travelling to Bethlehem? Dr. B. It has. I. How do you trace the reference? Dr. B. The Bible is a complex book of narrative in one part, and general principles in the other. I. That is no answer to my question. How do you trace the reference which you say the text bears to the chapter in Judges I have noticed regarding the Levite? Dr. B. By the simple rule of applying general principles to particular narratives. I. Do you mean to assert that the word "hereby " has the slightest reference to the case of the Levite? Dr. B. I said nothing of the word "hereby." I. That is not true. You read the text. I will read it to you again. "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." I ask you again has that word "hereby" the slightest reference, directly or indirectly, to the chapter of Judges to which I referred? Dr. B. It shows us how to use the general principles to particular cases. I. That is not an answer to my question. Ia k you again has that word ' hereby "the slightest reference, directly or indirectly, to the chapter of Judges to which I referred? I want an answer yes or no, and you may then add any explanation you please. Dr. B. It has a very close reference. I. Is it not a fact that the word "hereby " has a direct reference to Cain, who is mentioned in the preceding verses, which I will read to you? 1 John, iii., 11—16:— "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. "Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." Dr. B. It has no reference to Cain. I. I will read you Matthew, xii., 40. "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly: shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Was Jesus three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? Dr. B. He was, according to the Hebrew mode of reckoning. I. Referring to Luke, xxiii., 50 to 54, Mark, xv., 42 to 45, and Matthew, xxvii., 57, I ask was it not evening on Friday before Jesus was buried? Dr. B. It was. I. Referring to Matthew, xxviii., 1, was it not some time toward the end of Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, when Mary Magdalen and the other Mary went to be the tomb? Dr. . It was. I Referring to verse 6 of the same chapter, was not Jesus then risen? Dr. B. He was. I. How do you make three days and three nights between late on Friday evening and before the end of Saturday? Dr. B. This stale objection arises from ignorance of ancient literatura. If rightly understood it is a beautiful method of Hebrew computation. I. That is not an answer to my question. I will repeat it again. How can you make it three days and three nights between late on Friday evening and before the end of Saturday? Dr. B. I cannot to an uneducated Englishman, ignorant of Hebrew idioms. I. To any nation in the world can you make three days and three nights of the time which elapses between late on Friday evening and before the end of Saturday? Dr. B. I can to any well-educated Jew. I. Will you please to specify day by day and night by night, the days and nights which the well-educated Jew would reckon to make three days and three nights between late on Friday evening and before the end of Saturday? Dr. B. The admitted principle of Jewish computation which reckons part of a day as a whole day. I. That is not an answer to my question. Will you be kind enough to specify day by day, and night by night, the days and nights which would be reckoned according to Jewish computation to make three days and three nights between Friday evening and before the end of Saturday? Dr. B. The Jewish mode of reckoning would be this: our Lord died before Friday evening. The Jews would call that one day, and Friday night one night, then Saturday one day and one night. I. That is only two days and two nights, although that is not correct. Where are the three days and three nights? Dr. B. The difficulty again rises in the mind of an unlettered Englishman. Our Lord died on Friday, the Jews would reckon that as one day and one night. I. I again call to your mind the admissions you have made. I read to you Matt., c. xii. v. 40, and I asked you was Jesus three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? You said he was, according to the Hebrew mode of reckoning. I then referred to Luke, c. xxiii. vv. 50 to 54, Mark, c. xv. vv. 42 to 45, and Matthew c. xxvii. v. 57, and asked you if it was not evening on Friday before Jesus was buried? and you said it was. I then referred to the visit of Mary Magdalen, and asked you according to Matthew, c. xxviii. v. 1, if that visit was not some time before the end of Saturday? and you said it was; and I asked you further, if Jesus was not risen? and you said he was. My question was not how long was Jesus dead; my question was, and is, was Jesus three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? Dr. B. Those words were spoken by Jesus to the Jews, and should be understood as if spoken to a Jew. I. Do Jews understand anything by "in the heart of the earth?" I. Was Jesus three days and three nights in the grave? Dr. B. He was, according to the Jewish mode of reckoning. I. Give me in English the names of the three days, and the names of the three nights, which, according to the Jewish mode of reckoning, Jesus was in the reup |