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MATTERS OF RELIGION.

THE FIRST PART OF THIS TREATISE, CONTAINING MY DEALING WITH MY LORD OF CANTERBURY.

CHAPTER I.

Of the Chief Doubts and Difficulties which offered themselves unto me in reading over the aforesaid Book of the Defence of the Censure, for which I repaired finally unto his Majesty.

HAVING set down before in part the great variety of affections and troubles of mind which I felt in reading this book, which cannot so effectually be expressed by pen, as then I felt them, in every passage almost that I read, and was not well able to answer; I could wish that the learned reader would examine rather the matter by reading over the Treatise itself, than to stand to my relation thereof: but yet some few principal heads wherein I did stick most at that time, and was most desirous to be satisfied in, were these that ensue.

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MY FIRST DIFFICULTY.

Why Protestants refuse Disputation and other public trials.

1. My first difficulty arose and began to grow even with the very first lines of the book, to wit, of a complaint set down in the Author's Epistle prefixed to Mr. Charke, and continued and repeated again afterwards oftentimes throughout the whole work, where the said author doth complain greatly that the Catholics having made many offers of some just trial of their and the Protestant religion in England, either by public disputation, preaching, free writing, or printing, they could never yet be admitted unto any; which made me much to marvel, first, whether it were true or no; and secondly, if it were true, upon what cause or ground this should be so long denied. For that supposing our Protestant religion to be true, and most certainly founded on the word of God, as I was persuaded, I could not see why this public trial might not, and ought not to be granted.

2. Now then, that the Papists had indeed offered themselves to these trials, it appeared unto me very probable, both for that Mr. Campian his first writing (against which Mr. Charke and Mr. Hanmer did begin their contention) was to this effect, to offer equal disputation, or any of the other trials now mentioned: and by this book it appeared that the Censure upon those writings did offer the same while Mr. Campian was yet at liberty, and not taken in England: and this defence of the said Censure after his death doth most earnestly continue and iterate the same suit for indifferent trial, in the name of all Catholics, propounding therewith sundry most equal conditions thereof, as to the reader may appear; and charging Mr. Charke and the ministers that they dare not come to this trial for fear of the weakness of their cause.

3. Then moreover I considered, that Mr. Campian, Mr. Shirwine, and others of the learned sort of Papists that made these offers, had not in effect been disputed withal, but only in the Tower privately, and that (as their friends gave out) upon unequal conditions, when they were either

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condemned or like to be condemned to death, as after they were, and executed also. And that one Mr. Mr. John Hart John Hart, another young man of that religion, offered disputathough graduate (as I have heard) in Divinity by the University of Douay, coming over about the same time, and either offering himself, or being taken and brought before my said honourable patron Sir Francis Walsingham, and demanding this liberty of public trial, was not admitted thereunto, but rather, after some months' liberty, was sent to the Tower, and there, after his condemnation to death, he was assigned to confer with Mr. Doctor John Reynolds in the said Tower, and that conference afterwards published, but with partiality (as the Papists said) and the like they affirmed of the said disputation held in the Tower by Mr. Campian and his fellows all which complaints and suspicions seemed to me might well have been avoided, if the said trials had been public and free, as the Papists demanded them.

4. Moreover, I saw and considered, that whereas his Majesty, soon after his coming into England, was resolved graciously to hear the differences in religion that were between his own subjects, and to that effect yielded for three or four days most honourable audience in his own person, to hear and judge the contentions between the Protestants and Puritans; yet, notwithstanding, the Papists in this conference had no place at all, nor were so much as permitted to propose their difficulties, or produce their proofs of their religion, which was marked by many, and divers also spake thereof. Wherefore upon all these considerations I was much troubled, doubting lest this straitness used in not admitting Papists to any kind of this equal offered trial might have some mystery in it; and that all things went not so clear indeed on our side as I had hitherto believed. Therefore I desired greatly to have the opinion and counsel of our learned men, for clearing this doubt. And this was the substance of my first difficulty.

MY SECOND DIFFICULTY.

Particular Ways of trying Spirits; which is Catholic, and which Heretical.

6. After this, as I passed on from the Epistle to the answer of Mr. Charke's Preface, about trial of spirits, there arose another great doubt, for that the author of the Defence, passing from the general offer of trial unto divers particular ways and manners thereof, taketh Mr. Charke at his word, who had alleged of St. John, that we must not believe all spirits, but try them whether they be of God or no.* Upon which principle the author of the Defence, joining roundly with Mr. Charke, offereth to stand to all lawful trial whatsoever, and thereupon taketh in hand to prove that Protestants indeed have no sure ground or way to try an heretical or Catholic spirit; and that Catholics have many, whereof he setteth down nine in that place; shewing, first, that the only way offered by Protestants, of only Scripture, is no way at all, and that for divers reasons which there he setteth down; and one among the rest, that all heretics, old and new, have professed this way, all the sectaries also of our time, not only against Catholics, but also against Lutherans, Zuinglians, Calvinists, and the rest; and consequently that this way alone, without other helps, is not the way to end controversies with heretics, or to try spirits.

7. Wherefore on the other side he sheweth, that Catholics have not only this way to try spirits by only Scripture, but have many other helps also to fortify the same, which, being joined together, do make a very strong probation or examen of a Catholic or heretical spirit.† And for this first proof of express words of Scripture, for matters in controversy between us, he setteth down a great number of their positions that have express words of Scripture for them, and we no express Scripture against them; so as they cannot be avoided by us, but by * 1 John 4. Answer to Charke's Preface, pp. 13, 14. † See Defence, p. 28.