DR. JOHN ROLPH.-Mr. Chairman,-I consider the question under debate, one of great interest and importance, and which I do not approach without diffidence and concern. I feel obliged to my honorable friend from Grenville (Mr. Norton) for the calm, temperate and reasoning manner in which he has introduced the subject to the consideration of the committee--an example which, I trust, will continue to meet throughout the discussion with the practical approbation of all engaging in the debate. It is on this account I feel regret at a few remarks which fell from an hon. member opposite (Mr. Marks;) for when the hon. and learned member for Toronto, in his eloquent and perspicuous address, alluded to the great neighboring republic, the illustration was received from his learned lips as music to the ear and instruction to the understanding: but no sooner did my hon. friend from Grenville, in unavoidable reply, make a similar reference, than he was met by the hon. member opposite with observations, as misplaced as they were undeserved.

I consider there are three distinct views or propositions on this subject before the committee; 1st, to confine the Clergy Reserves to the English Church to the exclusion of all others. 2ndly, to divide them among a select number of churches. 3rdly, to apply them to General Education. I shall seperately consider these propositions; aad I am happy the claims of the English Church, first under your notice, are vindicated by so able and eloquent an advocate as the learned Solicitor General. Contemplate the learned gentleman (to whom I cheerfully give every meed of praise) in his elevated place as its champion; see him surrounded with all the Clergy Reserves and their rents and profits; confess the worth of the Bishops, Archdeacons, Priests and Deacons in their extended diocese; multiply, if you please, the 57 Rectories, with their endowments and exclusive ecclesiastical and spiritual rights and privileges; view about the learned gentleman, in concentrated perspective, all the wealth and glory of our provincial hierarchy, lately gilded, too, with £70,000, a fractional product of a fraction of their vast estates, besides the most wealthy congregations yielding revenues unknown. Amidst all this ecclesiastical splendor and aggrandizement, the learned gentleman is approached with an humble request. He is prayed to recover his sight from the glare about him, and condescendingly cast a glance into the surrounding distance. There he is shown numerous other churches formed of christian groups about pious pastors, with no wealth but the Bible, and no distinction save the Cross. Behold those fellow labor

ers in the same vineyard! Will you be pleased, Sir, out of your abundance, to share a portion of it among them? Will you? --What is the answer? Not a jot!--Our best feelings seem intuitively to enlist themselves against this answer. It seems equally to shock natural reason and christian charity. From a happy constitution of our nature, some truths and errors, like the extremes of light and darkness to the eye, force a moral perception, which neither needs nor allows argumentative deliberation. To prove that two and two make four, would puzzle, perhaps, a skilful logician; and I envy not the casuist or the divine, who, neither from the motions of the heart, nor the principles of reason, can perceive or understand the palpable selfishness and injustice of admitting one church to monopolize wealth and power, to the exclusion of every other. Conscience, the monitor which sometimes whispers and sometimes roars, seems in this case, as in a thousand others, to anticipate mere fallible reason, by instantly revealing the sanctions of unerring trath. Put the casc as stated (or if over-stated bring down the contrast to the least possible existing disproportion) to a child or an adult, to an Indian or a Philosopher, and the first exclamation will be,-"it is unequal indeed! Splendid hierarchy,' share your aggrandizement with your sister-churches!" This is the voice of reason, the language of the heart and the philosophy of the Bible.

on.

The very conclusion that the other dissenting churches ought not to enjoy the wealth, patronage and union of the state, affords an obvious corallary against the exclusive claims of the church in questiWhatever reason may be assigned against the Kirk, the Presbyterians, the Bap• tists, the Methodists, or any other known denomination, may with equal force be applied to the English Church in this country. It is not for me, Sir, to combat imaginary grounds of exception against bodies of christians who I cannot conceive to be ctherwise than enticed to equal religious rights. S.ate the reasea of the exclusion and I will show the applicability of it to the excluders. You may, after analytical fashion, call these unknown causes of disability, x x y ad libitum; and whenever their real value is ascertained, you will find that they may, without disturbing the balance of truth, be assigned to either side of the equation. Are the other churches, in any respect, less deserving ?----Are they less useful members of the general community?-Are they less industrious in their respective avocations ?--Do they less display the domestic and social virtues? Are they less loyal to the King or patriotic to their country? Are they, in any

respect whatever, inferior subjects either in peace or war? I will not pause for an answer, lest it should seem to imply on my part even a distant belief that any honorable member would indulge the affirmative.But, surely, when there is such a christian correspondence between their political relations and deserts, there ought to be extended to them the same favor and protection. They draw their creed, too, from a common source; they worship the same Supreme, and they anchor in the same faith. They hasten to the common tomb, and being expectants of the same resurrection, they mingle as fellowcandidates for the same immortality.

It is wrong, then, to make artificial distinctions, when there is no real christian difference. All indeed, may not think alike, and the systematic theologian may draw lines of demarcation. But they are branches of the same vine; and although those branches may present autumnal varieties of color, shape and size, yet they are nourished by a common root, & all springing from the parent trunk, are seen in friendly company growing with it towards the sky. Light loses not its physical laws or beauty by spreading out its rich variety in the splendid rainbow. So the rays of truth passing thro' different minds of different refracting powers, exhibit shades of difference which run imperceptibly into one another, and again unite to yield synthetically the primitive truth.

The claim by any one Church to a continuation of the existing monopoly, affords proof of that Church being already corrupted by it. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven." A Church is a body of Christians, and must therefore exhibit the collective character of the several parts. Rich pastors and congregations need special circumspection, and will experience all the christian vis inertia which belongs to the individual Dives. Hence it may be feared a Church of even primitive excellence, may be so lulled with worldly ease, so dilated with Reserves, and so encumbered with aggrandizments, as to be obliged to leave the narrow way for that broader one which leads to ecclesiastical destruction.

But here, let us take the benefit of their vision. They see clearly and most justly the inexpediency of allowing the other Churches to enjoy the favor, wealth and matrimony of the State. I look at their exclusive pretensions through the same medium, and as clearly discover them to be alike dangerous and unchristian. "As they judge let them be judged;" and as they would "mete out to others, let it be measured to them again," In surveying from their mountainous station the village Churches in the valley beneath, they inspect them, as it were with tellescopic aid, & rightly judge it unwise to transplant them from that spiritual kingdom which "is not of this world."

But unfortunately when reverting to their own condition they look through the further end of the telescope and are led into the strangest optical delusion. Let them fairly turn round the magnifier of truth upon their own pretensions, & the charm will be dispelled, the illusion will be done away, and the Church will returu to her etherial clime, and aspire rather to light the world than to be lighted by it.

Toleration is often thought a very gracious thing: & both political and ecclesiastical moderation is boastingly conceded to dissenters under the license to think as they please.” No thanks are due for it. We can think in spite of bulls and acts of parliament to the contrary. Mind is an empire of its own; and it is a glorious thing we are so constituted by nature that we must think and do think beyond the reach of tyrants. Were it possible, perhaps an over careful majority of this very Assembly would legislate away our thinking on the very subject under debate. There is, therefore, no merit in leaving, from necessity, our fellow christians in undisputed possession of those intellectual operations which are given by God before whose tribunal, alone their purity can be tried. But this boasted moderation is exercised in a way as objectionable in principle and mischevious in practice as the fire and faggot. Learned gentlemen would be shocked at the proposition to burn at the stake or pierce with the bayonet in order to make christians conform to the Established Church. This tenderness, however, for the body, ill accords with a daily barbarity towards the mind. There is no virtue in merely substituting moral for physical force. The method may have more refinement, yet not be less ignoble. The Indian who scalps the head is really not more savage than he who breaks the heart. An affectation of tenderness and liberality by making physical violence give place to a series of brutal and painful influences upon the mind, is an imitation of the conduct of Julian, the apostate, wholly unworthy the age and country in which we live. It is only a different set of base means to gain the same base end. Let us compare the antient with modern Julians. The learned and impartial Dr. Moshiem in his ecclesiastical history, makes the following observations respecting the ancient Julian :— "It is true, this prince seemed averse to the use of violence in propagating superstition, & suppressing the truth; nay, he carried the appearances of moderation and impartiality so far,as to allow his subjects a full power of judging for themselves in religious matters, and of worshipping the Deity in the manner they thought the most rational. Bat, under this mask of moderation, he attacked the same time, with the most consummate dexChristianity with the utmost bitterness. and, at terity. By art and stratagem he undermined the church, removing the privileges that were grant. ed to Christians, and their spiritual rulers; shutting up the schools in which they taught philosophy and the liberal arts; encouraging the

Sectaries and schismatics, who brought dishonor upon the gospel by their divisions; composing books against the Christians, and using a variety of other means to bring the religion of Jesus to ruin and contempt."

Modern philosophers of the same school are equally decided in renouncing force, and are equally dexterous in the use of those means which act upon the frailties of our common nature. For example; the churches now excluded from the wealth and privileges of our provincial hierarchy are invited to contemplate its tempting aspect, and partake of its good things upon a dutiful conformity. This temptation acts upon men of all characters and degrees of moral strength; it acts not for a day but for years and generations while the system lasts. It insures not a conformity of the heart [a secret known only to the heart and the searcher of hearts] but a conformity to external regulations and subscription to 39 articles. But the profession of the tongue is not always the confession of the mind; and if, therefore, all good men are not in this Eden tempted to taste the inviting fruit, it will certainly be feasted upon by the less scrupulous and more compromising men of the world, the very men who most need to be taught the purity of the Gospel and the self-denial of the cross.-All the wealth and privileges of the favoured Church are carefully barricaded, leaving a narrow entrance guarded with a sign upon which is a superscription of the condition of entrance, viz: "Clergy Reserves and appendages! Terms;-Subscription to 39 Articles and support of the Establishment!" This allurement to the mind is really more effectual than the rack to the body-for the former wears the mark of independent choice, while the latter rouses all of human nature to resist that coercion which would necessarily stamp success with a cowardly acquiescence. Learned men are now a days not for punching the body, but so to speak, for punching the mind; not for putting our corporations on the rack, but for torturing the mind into conformity by wounding it through the sting of pride under exclusion, of mortification under unmerited disabilities, and of pungent humiliation under a blazoned inferiority.

It is true the excluded churches are allowed an option; but it is not an option which is honorable in its moral or pure in its spiritual character. It is not a simple option, as it ought to be, between truth and error. The invitation is general & seems generous. "Come, sister churches, within the precincts of our prosperity!" But when they arive at the confines, the gate is shut! What is the watch-word for opening it? What is the price of admission? Conformity! Weli; this is refused-What is the answer? Then stay without and STARVE. Thus temptation on the one hand and privation on the other, are substituted for fire and faggot, inquisition and sword.

Other christians must either obtain these worldly bounties by joining a communion from which they dissent or lose what no others are better entitled to than themselves for conscience sake. This is inconsistent with the whole tenor of scripture, which teaches us to let truth "have free course and be glorified." It once fell to my lot when engaged in the practise of the law, to draw a will by which the father provided that his son should inherit his property, if at the age of 21 he should be a member in communion with the Roman Church, and if not, the estate was to be applied to other purposes and uses. There is scarcely a father or a son who does not feel an instinctive repugnance to this arrangement. It unnecessarily places a young man in a fearful conflict between the loss of his property and the loss of his faith. And from the frailty of human nature [which from its very frailty should fly temptation] it would not be strange should a youth so situated keep the property "and go away sorrowful." The principle is the very same in the case before us upon a national scale. The King as the father of his people is made to say, "my loyal and beloved subjects; I have a vast and rich domain which I have of my mere grace and favor exclusively bestowed upon my Frotestant Episcopal Church; such other churches as will come within its pale, shall partake thereof, but such of my loyal and christian subjects as adhere to their schismatic faith, I leave to hunger and thirst under the system of voluntary contribution." If the voluntary system is sufficient for the excluded churches, it is sufficient for all; if insufficient, why should they be denied the bounty which, it is said they need? I come, therefore, to the conclusion that if such Executive favors are to be given to any christian churches in our community, they should be given to all; but as such a lucrative alliance with the State is inexpedient, anti-christian and unsafe, it should neither be countenanced in any, nor arbitrarily confined to one.Let me inquire into those effects on a religion which have ever followed this community of interest between it and the State.-Paganism has been thro' many ages and in many countries supported by the State.-But during all those ages was any heathen mythology ever purified into christian excellence? It has not only tested the experience of every age, but of every form of government; and yet while history has not transmitted a solitary instance of reciprocal good, it has fearfully recorded the growing corruptions of both. If governments corrected none of the errors of heathenism, upon what ground can we expect them to add to the value, the purity or the perfection of christian truth? Paganism wedded to the State, and sharing its learned ease, wealth and splendor, began, probably, with a Jupiter; and under this boasted alliance, Gods grew in number, till, fancy exhausted by impiety of further images, reared "an altar to an un

known God;” which moved the intrepid Paul mphatically to exclaim "Ye men of Athens him whom ye know not declare I unto you." Governments not only corrupted Paganism itself, but combined with it to shut out the light of truth. The people were taught to regard an attack on religion as an attack on the State connected with it. They were to stand or fall together. Hence when Socrates glimpsed by the light of nature, the existence of only one God and the immortality of the soul, he was charged with impiety against a State religion, with a sort of treason against Greece and Grecian Gods. Did the Government welcome this spark of Socratic truth and husband it into a flame to lighten the Gentiles and dispel the gloom of heathen superstition in the world?-No-They poisoned him. Now if the religion had not been the religion of the State, and the people had been allowed, as matter of right and practice, to think on those subjects and search out the truth wherever it could be found, it never could have been alleged as a crime against Socrates, or have furnished his enemies with such means for his destruction. This mixture of politics and religion made them respectively more formidable and unrelenting; for each upon the usual law of reciprocity endeavoured to sustain the other in the exercise of power and the disposal of their victims. When an artless child with the simplicity of one in 1836 made choice of the ornament of a Goddess instead of a toy, did a protecting Government prevent its being butchered for alleged impiety at the foot of the statue?

This political relation of paganism armd it with greater and fiercer power against the earlier christians; and to my mind an everlasting warning against it is written in the blood (a deluge of it too) of those martyrs, whose peaceful labours would easily have subverted idolatry, had it not been sup ported against them by the state.

Let it not, Sir, be forgotten, that from the begining of the world to the coming of the Messiah, natural religion was open to mankind--It's great truths were expressed (if I may use the phrase) in the most intelligible hyerogliphics in the earth and in the heavens. They saw the rising and setting of the Sun in all that majesty which has commanded the admiration of every age; they beheld an inconceivable profusion of worlds scattered through the various constellations or collected in the milky-way. Descending to a lower sphere, they saw those winged vapours which sometimes shroud the atmosphere with a tempest, and at other times exhibit a natural kaleidescope of what is splended in optics and magnificent in scenery; while from the same source they welcomed almost as often as their wants recurred, those genial showers which ooled a sultry air and refreshed both the animal and vegetable kingdoms. Turning their eyes to things more immediately about them

upon the surface of the earth, they saw mass ses of matter presenting upon a scale of less magnificence, much that is striking and wonderful. They saw the living garniture of fields, and the progressive developement of vegetation, from the sowing of the seed to the maturity of the plant; and the structure and laws of life in the higher order of animals, were even more demonstrative of creative wisdom and beneficence. Even inanimate things are stampt with peculiar laws, admirably suited to the wants and happiness of man ; and the very chrystal, tenacious of its character, assumes its appointed form tho' passed thro' the chrystalizing process a thousand times over. Was not this a divine revelation for them to read and study? It has been said "if there was a God or a message from him, it would be written in the sky:" and so it is and ever has been.

But how is it this book of nature was so long open to the Pagan world without avail? Why was this volume forsaken for an ideal mythology? Why was natural religion, with its abundant testimonics, superseded by artificial idolatry? In an eminent degree because Paganism was upheld against it by the power, wealth and splendor of the State with which it was associated. Perhaps Paganism was natural religion, which in a long course of time received under human government a debasing alloy, till it retained scarcely a vestige of its purer origin. It was fearful odds for mankind, in the pursuit of truth, to find arrayed against them error, based upon the law, enriched and favored by the executive, and so wrapt up in imperial splendor & superstitious sanctity, as to arrest every attempt to correct or purify it, as treason against the State, sacrilege against the temples & felony against the Gods. Hence paganism proved hostile to the early christians; & under Nero, about 30 years after the death of Christ, they were put to death, according to Tacitus, with exquisite cruelty; and to their sufferings the Emperor added mockery and derision. Some were covered with the skins of wild beasts and left to be devoured by dogs; others were nailed to the cross; numbers were burnt alive; & many covered with inflammable matter were lighted up when the day declined to serve as torches during the night. Thus it appears that idolatry intrenched in the State has been uniformly corrupted by it, and has ever fiercely opposed the progress of natural and revealed truth. And I now ask, has not christianity from its confederacy with the kingdoms of this world, suffered similar contaminations of its purity and retardation of its progress? I collect from the most accredited writers upon ecclesiastical history, that the christian church upon the very first embraces of the State under Constantine was deteriorated. This is not a mere point of speculation or reasoning; it is a matter of fact to be determined by historical testimony; and the weight of the autho.