province as much as any four English stood in full and complete analogy to sees in that province. My hon. and that of Ireland in regard to religious learned Friend says, and shows, that differences. But the direct contrary of there was a time when the Welsh this is the truth. I think, therefore, it Church was a separate .Church. No is practically impossible to separate the doubt that is perfectly true; but, at case of Wales from that of England. the same time, it is necessary to go back That is not my assertion alone, it is evinearly 1,300 years for the purpose of dently the belief of my hon. and learned proving that distinct and separate ex- Friend himself. He has not said that istence, and 1,300 years form a period we can disestablish the Church in Wales in which the waves of time effectually and leave the Church of England estabefface any footprints that may have been lished. Nay, more, he has gone very made on the sands. far indeed towards saying the reverse,

MR. WATKIN WILLIAMS: Seven because he said— hundred years.

MR. GLADSTONE: I think my hon. and learned Friend does not wish me to enter upon the point of the real na

ture of the union which occurred at the time of St. Augustine?

MR. WATKIN WILLIAMS: There was no union, even in form, until after the death of Griffith, the last Archbishop of Wales, in 1115, who was succeeded by Bernard the lawyer.

MR. GLADSTONE: I am willing to make my hon. and learned Friend a present of those 600 years for the purpose of the present discussion, and to say that as regards the identity of these Churches, the whole system of known law, usage, and history has made them completely one. My hon. and learned Friend should reflect that it was not by the action of Rome that the whole of England was converted after the Saxon invasion. The history of Christianity has shown that a very large portion of England was converted not by the action of Roman missionaries, but from the North; and my hon. and learned Friend might just as well set up the doctrine of a separate Church for the northern portion of England as for Wales. There is a complete ecclesiastical, constitutional, legal, and, I may add-for every practical purpose-historical identity between the Church in Wales and the rest of the Church of England. After hearing the latter sentences of my hon. and learned Friend's speech, I can hardly say for what he recommends us to vote; but he entertains the opinion that "it is right that the Establishment of the Church and its Union with the State should cease to exist in the said dominion and principality of Wales." I will not say what it would be right to do, provided Wales were separated from England in the same way that Ireland is, and provided that the case of Wales

"It may be said-'If you disestablish the Church in Wales, you must, upon the same grounds, disstablish it also in Cornwall and Yorkshire;' and, Cornwall and Yorkshire look after themselves.' in answer to that, I say, as a Welshman-Let

I will add that whenever those places wish to disestablish their Church, they shall have my hearty support."

I am not making any unfair assumption, or endeavouring to entrap my hon. and learned Friend into an admission that he does not intend to convey, when I say that the real question which he endeavoured to raise was the disestablishment of the Church of England. The candour of my hon. and learned Friend is not less remarkable than the clearness with which he has treated the subject, and he has stated frankly and fairly that which, even if it had not been stated, would have been sufficiently obvious. We are not prepared to enter upon any crusade for that purpose. We do not think it our duty, in the first place, to endeavour to determine that question by any abstract arguments about national Establishments. If there are those who consider that national Establishments are opposed, under all circumstances, to the principle of the Christian religion, we do not belong to the number of such persons. It is our duty to look at the case of the Church of England as we find it. It is our duty to look at the facts and principles of the case, and to the feelings and convictions of the people with regard to it. In the first place, we are encountered at the threshold of the question by the old statistical controversy, with regard to which we seem to have been thus far rather too much in the condition of men who are determined to keep themselves in the dark; but we look to such communications as we have at our command, such as the Returns of marriages in the country, for I take them to be a not unfair indication of the relative amount of strength of the reli

gious communities in zealous, intelligent, | have to be extended not only to Wales, and attached members; and it is their but to every part of the kingdom. Leavstrength in that sort of vague adhesion ing, however, the wider field of discuswhich is all that in many cases a national Church is likely to command and to retain, which is one of the purposes for which it exists. I am bound to say that my belief is that the Established Church of England is the religion of a considerable majority of the people of this country. I can only say that, independently of that which appears to establish a good prima facie ground for remaining where we are, I do not envy my hon. and learned Friend or my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydvil, or any other man who ventures to take in hand the business of disestablishing the Church of England. Even if it were as fit to be done as I think it unfit, there is a difficulty in the case before which the boldest man would recoil. It is all very well so long as we deal with abstract declarations put upon the Notice Paper of this House, of what might be done or ought to be done. But only go up to the walls and gates, and look at the way in which stone is built upon stone, on the way in which the foundations have been dug, and the way they go down into the earth, and consider by what tools, what artillery you can bring that fabric to the ground. I know the difficulties, and I am not prepared, in any shape or form, to encourage-by dealing with my hon. and learned Friend's Motion in any way except the simple mode of negative-the creation of expectations which it would be most guilty, most unworthy, most dishonourable on our part to entertain, lest we should convey a virtual pledge. We cannot go in that direction; we do not intend to do so; we deprecate it, and we should regard it as a national mischief. Under these circumstances, I hope the House will be prepared to meet with a negative the Motion of my hon. and learned Friend, and without the slightest reproach to him or to those whom he represents, because we believe it is neither called for by the circumstances, nor agreeable to the desires and convictions of the people of this country. MR. OSBORNE MORGAN avowed himself to be one of those who believed that a time was coming, surely, though slowly, when such a measure of disestablishment as had already been applied to the Church in Ireland would

Mr. Gladstone

sion, he undertook to show that this year, in which the Irish Church ceased to exist as an Establishment, the Church in Wales was the greatest ecclesiastical anomaly to be found in the whole world. Applying a numerical test to the subject, he found that the number of people who attended Divine service on a particular Sunday in 1851 was-in churches 10.10 and in chapels 42.10 of the population. Since then there were no official statistics; but he had been furnished with figures which showed that since then Dissent had gained ground in Wales, and that many more services took place in chapels than in churches. The Prime Minister, in stating that Dissenters in Wales were to Churchmen in the proportion of four to one, had considerably understated the fact; the proportion, he believed, was much more nearly seven to one, and that did not by any means represent the whole of the question. Churchmen in Wales were composed almost exclusively of the richer portions of society. Every landowner, every country gentleman, every large farmer, and almost every professional man and large tradesman went to church, while every small farmer, small tradesman, and the whole of the labouring classes went to chapel; so that they had in Wales what was insisted on for the disestablishment of the Church in Ireland-namely, a Church kept up for the rich man at the expense of the poor majority. Differences of religion, again, were perpetuated by differences of language, and the same boundary lines which divided Churchmen from Dissenters practically divided Englishmen and Welshmen. The case for the disestablishment of the Church in Wales was just as strong as it had been for the disestablishment of the Church in Ireland; and Conservative Members, to do them justice-and notably the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gathorne Hardy), had pointed this out clearly in last year's debates. The advocates of disestablishment would, consequently, be fighting the Opposition this year with weapons forged in their own smithy. The arguments, in fact, were driven so home last year that it became necessary for Liberal Members to distinguish, if

they could, between the cases of Eng-(Swansea, the most important preferland and Ireland. The President of the ments were held by men who could not Board of Trade made great use of "the understand one word of the language of badge of conquest" argument; but to the people among whom they ministered. him, he confessed, that had always The attempt to suppress the Welsh lanseemed a very weak ground to take up. guage had failed, as similar attempts had He could not understand the force of an failed in Poland and Hungary, and the appeal for legislation in the present day result had been not that the Welsh lanbased upon the fact that several hun- guage had been exterminated, but that dreds of years ago his ancestors-if he the English churches had been deserted, had any-might have gone to Ireland and the English churches being deserted, and conquered the ancestors of hon. Gen- Dissent rushed in-like air into a vacuum tlemen who sat for Irish constituencies to supply the religious needs of the in the present day. The right hon. people. He would not say, as an hon. Gentleman at the head of the Govern- Member had done, that but for the efforts ment supposed that there was not the of the Dissenters the Devil might have same hostility existing towards the Eng- had the whole of Wales for his peculiar lish Church on the part of the Dissent- province; but the religious life which the ers in Wales which existed on the part people now professed was, without doubt, of Roman Catholics to the Irish Church. mainly owing to the exertions of the The right hon. Gentleman certainly must Welsh preachers. His right hon. Friend have been more pleasantly occupied in appeared to think that by removing the 1868 than in canvassing a Welsh con- causes which led to dissent, Dissenters stituency or he would have known better would be restored to the Church. -he would have found an amount of it was one thing to scatter the flock, bitterness and hostility which was deeply and quite another to bring them back to be regretted, but which hardly existed to the fold. These were not the days to the same extent in any other country. for conversions to Church principles; and But there was, however, this difference although it might be true, according to between the two countries, that whilst Sidney Smith's witty remark, that carDissent in Wales was a plant of foreign riage horses always drove to the Church, growth-such a thing as a Dissenter hav- and social considerations might continue ing hardly existed there 150 years ago-to exert their influences in favour of in Ireland it had existed from time immemorial. It was a singular fact that those who were now anxious to bring back Dissenters to the Church, when they had the opportunity of doing so did everything they could to scatter them. The original cause of Dissent might be summed up in two words

But

Establishments, these influences were very limited and very superficial, especially in Wales; they did not touch the hearts of the people. The Welsh had been made what they were by Nonconformist preachers, and Nonconformists they would remain to the end of the chapter. Of one thing he was quite English Bishops." For where there sure, when the day for the attack on was an English Bishop there speedily the Church of England came-as come followed English deans, English arch- it must, the weakest part of the fortress deacons, English vicars-choral, and Eng- would be found to be that which was lish rectors. Nowhere had the English located in Wales. He did not altoChurch been more disgraced by the gether approve abstract Resolutions; selfish disposition of the English holders they were like shots fired in the air, and of offices. During the reigns of the did not hit anything. He was strongly Tudors and the Stuarts several Welsh-in favour of disestablishment; but he men had been mitred; but since the accession of the House of Brunswick, not a single office had been so conferred. The consequence was, that the services in the Church had been changed into English; but the churches themselves were deserted. And to such a point had these preferments of Englishmen been carried that until quite recently, in the largest towns, such as Cardiff and

did not like the long agony of piecemeal disestablishment. It was like putting a man to death by tearing him limb from limb. A much larger question was involved, and sooner or later they must be prepared to deal with it-the question of no Established Church at all. The fruit was not yet ripe; but there were powerful influences at work, and a feeling was steadily growing up in the minds

Motion made, and Question put,

of the earnest and far-seeing members of] connection with Wales had been comthe Church of England that the time mended; but the Welsh Bishops had would soon come when religion must generally been men of great ability and stand on its own ground, and when they liberality of sentiment. He might inwould not be regarded as its best friends stance both the Bishop of St. David's who, to adopt the simile used the other and the late Bishop of Llandaff. He night by the right hon. Gentleman the was at a loss to see what practical object Member for the University of Oxford could be gained by the adoption of these (Mr. G. Hardy), were afraid to take Resolutions. With reference to that part away from the Church the stick on which of the Motion which related to the applishe leaned, lest she should fall flat on cation of funds, he believed such a proher face; but those who were for teach- position was eminently unsatisfactory, ing her to walk with freer and firmer inasmuch as it was calculated to provoke tread after she had ceased to lean on quite as much bitterness, as might be the crutches of the Establishment. occasioned by devoting the money to MR.SCOURFIELD regretted the hon. educational purposes, as under the preand learned Member had moved these sent system. He had always objected Resolutions, for independent of the ge- to abstract Resolutions of this chaneral objection that applied to abstract racter. Since he first obtained a seat Resolutions, he had not even urged any- in that House he had observed that it thing in favour of that part of them was used for two purposes-namely, as which referred to the Church. The only a machine for carrying on business, and practical result would be to lead to a as a chimney for letting off steam. He good deal of irritation between the two supposed it was under the latter aspect bodies in Wales-Churchmen and Dis- that the hon. and learned Member resenters. They combined, no doubt, the garded it when he introduced his Mopugnacious and pacific elements, and the tion; and he hoped that, having relieved latter had as much right to be considered his mind, he would not proceed any as the former. A great number of further. Churchmen were well-disposed towards their Dissenting brethren, and lived on friendly terms with them; but by these kind of attacks on the Established Church they were put into a false position. The precedent of the Irish Church was no precedent for Wales. As Bishop Butler said "Everything is that which it is, and not something else." Ireland was Ireland, and Wales was Wales. Wales was not an island, which Ireland was. Besides, the relations between Churchmen and Dissenters could not be compared with those existing between Roman Catholics and Churchmen. What national object could the hon. and learned Member accomplish by a Resolution of this kind? He quoted a passage from a Charge by the Bishop of St. David's to show the relations existing between Churchmen and Nonconformists in Wales, that right rev. Prelate having ordained not a few Nonconformists, who sometimes, at a considerable sacrifice of emolument, sought admission into the ministry of the Church -men of earnest religious convictions, who wished not to preach a new Gospel, but to preach the old Gospel in the pulpits of the Establishment. The recent appointment to the Episcopal Bench in Mr. Osborne Morgan

"That, in the opinion of this House, it is right that the Establishment of the Church and its Union with the State should cease to exist in the dominion and principality of Wales.” — (Mr. Watkin Williams.)

The House divided:-Ayes 45; Noes 209: Majority 164.

Carter, Mr. Alderman

AYES.

Kinnaird, hon. A. F.
Leatham, E. A.

Lewis, J. D.

Loch, G.

Lush, Dr.

Lusk, A.

McClure, T.

McLaren, D.
Miller, J.

Morgan, G. O.

Allen, W. S.
Anderson, G.
Beaumont, W. B.
Brewer, Dr.
Browne, G. E.
Bright, J. (Manchester)
Callan, P.
Candlish, J.
Carter, M
Cave,
Craufurd, E. H. J.
Cowen, J.
Davies, R.
Dilke, Sir C. W.
Dillwyn, L. L.
Edwardes, hon. Col. W. Stevenson, J. C.
Fawcett, H.
Ewing, H. E. C.
Fothergill, R.
Gilpin, C.
Graham, W.
Hadfield, G.

Henley, Lord

Potter, T. B.
Reed, C.

Richard, H.

Shaw, W.
Smith, J. B.

Taylor, P. A.
Whalley, G. H.

White, J.

Williams, W.

TELLERS.

Lawson, Sir W.
Herbert, hon. A. E. W. Smith, E.
Howard, J.

Goschen, rt. hon. G. J. North, Colonel

Greville, hon. Captain
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Grosvenor, Lord R.
Grove, T. F.
Guest, M. J.
Gurney, right hon. R.
Hambro, C.
Hamilton, Lord C. J.
Hamilton, Lord G.
Hamilton, I. T.
Hamilton, Marquess of
Hardy, right hon. G.
Hardy, J.
Hardy, J. S.
Hartington, Marquess of
Hay, Sir J. C. D.
Headlam, rt. hon. T. E.
Henley, rt. hon. J. W.
Henry, J. S.
Herbert,rt.hn. Gen. SirP
Hermon, E.

Kavanagh, A. MacM.

Kay-Shuttleworth, U.J.
Kekewich, S. T.

Kennaway, J. H.
Kingscote, Colonel
Lancaster, J.
Langton, W. G.
Lefevre, G. J. S.
Liddell, hon. H. G.
Lindsay, hon. Col. C.
Lindsay, Col. R. L.