Palk, Sir L.

Strutt, hon. H.

Milles, hon. G. W.
Mills, C. H.

Monk, C. J.

Monsell, right hon. W.

Montgomery, Sir G. G.

Morgan, G. O.

Shaw, W.

Sherriff, A. C.

Simonds, W. B.

Smith, E.

Stacpoole, W.

Stansfeld, rt. hon. J.

Mowbray, rt. hon. J. R. Stuart, Colonel

Hambro, C.

Hamilton, Lord C. J.

Haviland-Burke, E.

Mundella, A. J.
Newdegate, C. N.
North, Colonel

Herbert, hon. A. E. W. Reed, C.

Pell, A.

Sturt, H. G.

Talbot, C. R, M.

Lancaster, J.

Smith, F. C.

Smith, R.

Stevenson, J. C.

Taylor, P. A.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.
Tollemache, J.
Torrens, W. T. M'C.
Tracy, hon. C. R. D.
Hanbury-
Trelawny, Sir J. S.
Trevelyan, G. O.
Turner, C.
Turnor, E.
Vandeleur, Colonel
Villiers, rt. hon. C. P.
Vivian, H. H.
Vivian, Capt.hon.J.C.W.
Walker, Major G. G.
Waters, G.
Welby, W. E.
Whatman, J.
Williams, C. H.
Williams, W.
Williamson, Sir H.
Willyams, E. W. B.
Wingfield, Sir C.
Winterbotham, H. S. P.
Woods, H.
Wyndham, hon. P.
Wynn, Sir W. W.
Young, G.

TELLERS.

Adam, W. P.
Glyn, hon. G. G.

Miller, J.
Mitchell, T. A.
Morgan, hon. Major

Whitwell, J.
Whitworth, T.
Winn, R.

TELLERS.

Bright, J. (Manchester)
Fowler, W.

HORSE RACING.-LEAVE.

MR. T. HUGHES, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Laws relating to Horse Racing, said, that since he had placed his Notice of Motion on the subject on the Paper he had received a large number of letters, assuring him that the evils which attended on the sport of horse racing had spread more widely and much more deeply than he had any idea of. One letter which he had received was from a turf agent in times past, who had conducted many large money operations, and who stated that he had witnessed the ruin of hundreds of persons of all classes, and could tell of bankruptcies, robberies, suicides, and other ills, all arising from the habit of betting, as well as the rise to wealth of some of the greatest and most illiterate vagabonds. He had also had many letters, chiefly anonymous, abusing him for taking the step which he was now taking. In one of those letters-he would pass over all the personal abuse with which it opened -it was stated that it was, in fact, difficult for any one to define in what the evils of betting consisted; that in the opinion of the writer they were more imaginary than real, and that they existed in the minds only of prejudiced idiots, as thousands of persons were getting their living by betting. Now, his reason for bringing the subject before the House was precisely this-that thousands of people were getting their living Grosvenor, Capt. R. W. by betting, just as thousands were getting

NOES.

Dixon, G.
Downing, M'C.
Duncombe, hon. Col.
Eastwick, E. B.
Edwards, H.
Ewing, A. O.
Ewing, H. E. C.
Fawcett, H.
Fielden, J.

Figgins, J.

Forster, C.

Butler-Johnstone, H. A. Fowler, R. N.

Cowen, J.

Davie, Sir H. R. F.

Davies, R.
Davison, J. R.

Dilke, Sir C. W.
Dimsdale, R.

Gallwey, Sir W. P.
Gilpin, C.
Goldsmid, Sir F. H.
Gore, J. R. O.
Gourley, E. T,

Graham, W.

Greene, E.

Grieve, J. J.

either from the persons who lost, or those who won.

their living by picking pockets openly. He | Acts, any person who lost more than would refer, in support of the view which £10 by betting on horse racing was emhe took, to a case which had happened powered within three months to sue and within the last few months. It appeared, recover that sum from the person who from the sporting newspapers, that at a won it. If, after the expiration of three race meeting at Chester-a very impor- months, he did not so proceed, power tant meeting-a gentleman well known was given to any common informer to on the turf had a horse which was a fa- proceed against the person who won the vourite for an important race. That bet, and he was entitled to recover three gentleman, it seemed, on arriving at times its amount together with the costs Chester, communicated with persons in- of the action. Besides the two statutes terested in racing in the town his inten- he had mentioned, there were two of the tion not to run his horse. When asked reign of George II. The first of these why he came to that resolution, he said was the 13 Geo. II., by which it was enhe had not money enough on the race, acted that no person but the actual that his price was £14,000, and that if owner could run any horse; that no perhe did not get that sum his horse should son should run two horses in any race; not run. There was no pretence of sport; and that no race should be run for a less but it was simply a case of speculative stake than £50. Again, there was the trading of a mischievous character. 18 Geo. II., which provided that any Now, that was a case which clearly person who either won or lost a sum of showed, he thought, that betting was £20, on any one day, in betting should degenerating into a trade, and no one be liable to be sued by any person who would maintain that it was a useful might take the matter up, and that five trade to the country. It was, how-times the amount might be recovered, ever, said "Why not leave the whole matter to the Jockey Club?"-and so For the alterations made in far as he was concerned he should the law as it stood at the beginning of be glad to do so, if the Jockey Club of the present reign the Jockey Club were the present day were only like that of responsible. The first alteration took our fathers or grandfathers. The Jockey place in the third year of her present Club of 60 years ago were vigorous rulers Majesty. In 1840 the Duke of Richmond of the national sport. They had turned of that day brought in a Bill, as the reout of their own body the highest Gen- presentative of the Jockey Club, to retleman in the realm, the then Prince of peal the 13 Geo. II., and that Bill was Wales, and prohibited him from run- passed. The result was, that within three ning his horses on the turf, on the simple years afterwards the whole country was suspicion that he had instructed his filled with little races. Every secondjockey not to win a race when he could rate town, where a publican found a spot have won. The jockey, whose name was to set up a race-course, came to have Chiffney, published a pamphlet, in which its races for all sorts of small stakes. he brought forward evidence to show That was the commencement of the systhat the accusation was untrue. He had tem which brought racing into the posinot himself seen this work, which was so tion in which it now stood. The Jockey rare that a copy of it was, he believed, Club appeared to have soon become alive now worth something like £5. In it, how-to the mischief of the change, and in ever, Chiffney made a solemn declaration 1843 the Duke of Richmond, again as that he had not been instructed not to the representative of the Jockey Club, win, and that he had, in fact, done his took very strong measures, for certain best to win. But be that as it might, the persons were ordered out of the raceJockey Club, in former times, proceeded course at Goodwood to mark the sense on mere prima facie evidence, while the in which the Jockey Club viewed their Jockey Club of our own day had not conduct. In answer to this decided shown the same power of dealing with declaration of hostilities, actions, varysuch matters. At the commencement of ing from £5,000 to £120,000, were the reign of her present Majesty there brought against gentlemen of the highest were four Acts by which affairs relating position in the country on account of to the turf were regulated. There were bets they had made one of the Genthe Acts of Charles II., and of Anne; tlemen, the hon. Member for Galway and, by the combined operation of those (Mr. Gregory), being at that moment in

Mr. T. Hughes

the House. He had no doubt that the | try, nor had any further legislation result of these actions afforded great re- taken place, and things had now become lief to the mind of the hon. Gentleman so bad that he submitted it was high and his fellow-sufferers. The only one time that the House should do somereally brought to an issue was the one thing instead of relying any longer against the late Lord George Bentinck. upon the Jockey Club. The House That action was brought to recover three might, perhaps, remember the story of times the amount of a bet of £3,000 laid the Kentuckian who, boasting of his by the late Lord George Bentinck, and strength, offered to bet his walking it would have gone hardly against him companion-a small Englishman-that had it not been that the late Mr. Gully, he could throw him over a pretty wide then a Member of that House, appeared ditch. The Englishman accepted the as a witness, and stated that the bet had wager, and the Kentuckian, taking him been made with him instead of with the by the scruff of the neck and the waistperson whose name was mentioned in band of his trousers, flung him into the indictment. Before the other actions the middle of the water. Scrambling could be brought to trial the then House to the bank the Englishman demanded of Commons decided to interfere, and a his 10 dollars, whereupon his companion short Act was passed in 1844, suspending answered-" No, stranger, I guess not. all legal process while inquiry into the I did not say I could do it the first time matter was made. A Committee of both or the second time; but I can do it." Houses sat, and the result of their de- And if the House trusted to the Jockey liberations was the Act of the 8 & 9 Vict., Club to get them over the ditch, they which was the present law for regulating would find, in the same way, that they horse racing. By that Act the whole of would only be thrown, over and over the statutes on the subject were swept again, deeper into the mire. There away, a tabula rasa was made, and all was no wish on the part of the Club to the notice that the statute took of interfere. The question must be looked the subject was in the provision that money lost in betting on horse racing could not be recovered in a Court of Law. It was stated at that time that the matter would be effectually dealt with if left to the direction of the Jockey Club. The next time that the House legislated on the subject was in 1853, when the Betting House Act was passed, which provided stringent remedies against the system which had sprung from the repeal of the old statutes-namely, the system of betting houses, advertising agents, and cards. The unfortunate omission of Scotland from the operation of that Act, he was happy to hear, was to be rectified in the present Session by a Government measure. No doubt matters improved considerably from 1853 to 1860; but in that year they had again become so bad that Lord Redesdale introduced in the other House the Light Weights Bill, which was to fix the minimum weight to be carried by any horse at seven stone. In opposition to that Bill the late Lord Derby represented, on behalf of the Jockey Club, that that body were prepared to deal with the evil of light weights and handicaps. Upon that representation the Bill was withdrawn. Nothing had been done since that time by the Jockey Club, or by any other racing body in the coun

66

at from two points of view, and the first regarded horses. He believed that the very highest evidence had shown that the present system of horse racing must result in the deterioration of our breed of horses. [Mr. OSBORNE: No, no!] He was willing to confess that his hon. Friend behind him who cried 'No, no!" was more conversant with the subject than he was [Mr. OSBORNE : Hear, hear!]; but to race horses under two years was simply using beasts before they had arrived at maturity, and could only be likened to subjecting to competitive examinations and training for boat races boys of seven years of age. He held in his hand a letter signed by two of the highest authorities on this subject Sir Joseph Hawley and the hon. Member for Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin). In that letter, the Gentlemen to whom he alluded said—

"We do not join in the cry so often raised now about degeneration; as yet we believe that our horses, properly used, have not materially suffered; but we are no less firmly convinced that, deterioration being shown by experience to be as clearly possible as improvement, the running of two-year-olds, and the consequent prevalence of short courses, will as surely effect it as the care and judgment of our ancestors turned the ponies of the last century into racehorses of to-day. The prescience of one whose experience

"Still, when we find that while for 10 years no English-bred aged horse has started for any of the three great cups, yet an enthusiastic supporter of the present system can nevertheless declare our four-year-olds to be unexampled specimens of perfection, and Belladrum and Wild Oats the two grandest specimens ever seen by man,' the time

for action seems to have arrived."

has justly placed him at the head of turf autho- | nature would be complete which left that rities (Admiral Rous) long ago recognized the question untouched. If, therefore, any danger of present tendencies, and has more than hon. Gentleman who understood the once denounced the insatiable appetite for early racing as a crying iniquity which ought to be matter would prepare a clause on the forbidden by Parliament." subject, he should be willing to add it to the Bill. As to "P.P. betting," he did Again, they add— not wish to deal with it in the first instance, his object being that the Bill should stand upon the simplest and broadest grounds. But as he was told that no real reform could be introduced unless that subject was grappled with, he would be ready to accept a clause imposing penalties on "P.P. betting." With respect to betting, Her Majesty's Government had expressed their intention to bring in a Bill to rectify the Act 8 & 9 Vict. c. 53, and to extend its operation to Scotland, and within the last few days they had shown a disposition to carry out the provisions of the present law more stringently. But that law only applied to the owners and occupiers of places where betting was carried on, and therefore he proposed to introduce a clause, providing that any person who took a deposit of money for the purpose of betting, on the understanding that another sum was to be returned in a certain event, should be amenable to the penalties of the Betting Act; or, in other words, should be liable to a fine of £30, one-third to go to the poor of the parish where the offence was committed and two-thirds to the person who should prosecute. By this means not only the owners and occupiers of particular houses or rooms, but all persons who made a trade of betting, and took deposits of money, would be brought under the Betting Act. He had heard the argument that if such a Bill were passed it would affect the amusements of the poor. He did not think there was anything in that argument; for the great beauty of the sport was, that a poor man could enjoy the sight of the horses running quite as much as the rich man who might be the owner of horses. He had explained the provisions of the Bill. The evil was great and pressing, and he hoped the House would give him leave to introduce the measure. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.

There could be no doubt, if figures went to prove anything, that the breed of horses was suffering very much from the habit of premature racing. A return from the Racing Calendar showed, during 25 years from 1843 to 1868-the number of two-year-olds run at races had increased four-fold, while the number of races of a mile and upwards had decreased. Then, again, with regard to betting, could they leave that matter in the hands of the Jockey Club? He was speaking under the correction of hon. Gentlemen; but he believed it to be a fact that the Jockey Club had advisedly declined to accept any jurisdiction in the matter of betting, and the time had come when the House should step in and deal with the subject by definite legislation, if they wished to check demoralization, and to rescue the old popular sport of this country from deterioration and degradation. Therefore, the question was what should the House do. After conferring with the best authorities, he had prepared a Bill, which he now asked the House to read for the first time. The provisions of the Bill were very simple. The principal provision of the Bill was the abolition of two-year-old races. The second was to return to the state of the law as it stood before 1833, when none but three-year-old horses could start for a Queen's Plate. The Queen's Plates were a very old institution, and there were now upwards of 30 of them. This clause, therefore, provided that no hors, eexcept he was four years old, could win a Queen's Plate. There were other matters connected with racing with which he did not feel competent to deal. There was, for instance, the very intricate system of handicapping, which he did not pretend to understand. Authorities differed very widely about it, and many thought that no Bill of this

Mr. T. Hughes

SIR HENRY HOARE, in seconding the Motion, said, that he had resided for many years in France and taken some share in the racing there, and he believed the time would come when we should go to that country for an example