Obrázky na stránke
PDF
ePub

The House met at Two of the clock. ARMY-MILITARY RESERVE FUNDS.

QUESTION.

COLONEL NORTH said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether the recommendations contained in Paragraphs 15 and 18 of the Report from the Select Committee on Military Reserve Funds have been car

there was a difference between the two years in the amount of the payments of £522,000. The cause of that difference was the arrangements-which he had not had time fully to go into so as to state their details to the House-made as to the period for paying those annuities, with a view to the convenience of the public balances.

QUESTION.

ried into effect-namely, that the Reserve OPEN COMPETITION-CIVIL SERVICE. Fund should be wound up and the balance paid into the Exchequer; and, if so, whether a sufficient sum has been taken in the Army Estimates to defray all payments formerly charged on the

Reserve Fund?

MR. WINTERBOTHAM said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is able to state what steps have been taken for "the establishment of a system of open competition on an extended scale" in the Civil Service, in accordance with the expectation held out to the House on the 10th of April 1869, and renewed on the 25th of February 1870 ?

MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, in redemption of the pledge we gave at earlier periods of the Session, we have steadily prosecuted the measures which were contemplated in the discussions that oc

MR. CARDWELL: Sir, the recommendations of the Committee have not been carried into effect by carrying the balance to the Consolidated Fund, as I thought the Reserve Fund was affected with a trust for the officers of the Army, by whose contributions it has been raised, and ought not to be paid into the public account. The course actually adopted has been this-Last year, for the first time, the application of the fund was submitted to the control of Parlia-curred in this House. The arrangements ment in one of the Votes. It is not at present in an affluent state owing to the recent reductions in the Army. The only increment asked for from the Votes subject of open competition, are is for the purpose of purchasing first now in a very forward state, and we commissions rendered vacant by the re- hope in the course of a very short time duction in the number of subaltern-probably, in two or three weeks-to officers. be able to lay on the Table of the House conclusive documents relating to the matter.

connected with open competition, and connected with other elements of change

in the offices that attach themselves to the

EDUCATION BILL.-QUESTION.

SAVINGS BANKS.-QUESTION SIR JOHN LUBBOCK said, he would beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Why the excess of interest MR. WINTERBOTHAM said, he paid to the Trustees of Savings Banks wished to ask the Vice President of the during the year 1869, over that received Council, Whether the power of withby the Commissioners, amounted to drawal during the time of religious in£217,254 158. 10d. while the excess for struction given by the Time Table Conthe year 1868 was only £17,091 118. 2d. ? science Clause in the Government AmendTHE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-ments authorize withdrawal from the QUER, in reply, said, he had not had school during that time, or only witha very long time to look into that Ques-drawal from the lesson? tion, and therefore, perhaps, could not give the full answer which his hon. Friend desired. In substance, however, the answer was, that the amount which was paid to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt on account of the savings banks for terminable annuities in 1868 was £2,780,000, and in 1869 only £2,258,000, so that

MR. W. E. FORSTER: I must point out to my hon. and learned Friend the actual wording of the time-table clause. It has been carefully worded, and it is intended to carry out its exact meaning. The last line of that clause says

"The scholar may be withdrawn by his parents from such observance or instruction without forfeiting any other benefit of the school,"

such instruction being instruction in religious subjects. The power of withdrawal is withdrawal from the instruction, not from the school. Of course, the clause must have that interpretation; but the way in which it will practically work will be this-that if the school is so managed that the child can be put to other instruction-as, for instance, sent to another class-room, then it will be in the power of the managers to send the child to that other instruction; whereas, if the school is so arranged that it would be impossible for him to be withdrawn from the religious instruction without being withdrawn from the school, then the child will be withdrawn from the school.

SUPPLY.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

NAVY ESTIMATES.-OBSERVATIONS.

MR. CORRY said, it would be in the recollection of the House that, on the first evening devoted to the Navy Estimates, the Secretary to the Admiralty made a statement, from which it was made to appear that certain stocks of victualling stores and Navy clothing were not only extravagantly, but absurdly in excess of the requirements of the service. The statement caused a great deal of merriment at the expense of former Boards of Admiralty, including all that had been in Office since 1854, and, therefore, various Liberal Boards. On hearing the statement he was satisfied that the hon. Member had found "a mare's nest," and although a Return was afterwards laid on the Table which afforded a literal confirmation of the hon. Gentleman's statement with regard to Deptford Victualling Yard, a single glance at it was sufficient to show that it was absolutely valueless as a confirmation of the impression which that statement was intended to convey. It was so for two reasons-first, because it specified the quantities in store in, and the issues from, one victualling yard only; and secondly, because it showed the issues during only one year, instead of on an average of years, by which alone a correct estimate could be formed of the requirements of the service. Of the three prin

Mr. W. E. Forster

cipal victualling yards-Deptford, Gosport, and Plymouth, Deptford was the least calculated to throw any light on the subject; because, while it was the principal depôt of stores for the supply of other yards, it was the yard from which the smallest direct issues were made to Her Majesty's ships, more espe cially since the abolition of Woolwich Dockyard. The issues of stores might be very large in a given year without there being any great demand on Deptford within that year. Suppose at the commencement of a year there were 5,000 bottles of wine in store at Gosport, and 4,000 were issued in the year to the ships in the Portsmouth harbour and at Spithead, that issue might occur without there being any demand on Deptford for the year; but, in the following year, there would be a demand on Deptford to replenish the stock at Gosport. Again, nothing was more uncertain than the quantity of clothing which would be required for seamen in the course of a year. Clothing was not supplied to sailors as it was to Marines, gratuitously; and you could not tell in respect of sailors, as you could of Marines, how many jackets and other articles would be required, for it was quite optional with the sailor, so long as he was dressed according to the regulation, whether he obtained what was necessary under the regulations respecting dress during the course of the year, and whether he obtained it at the slop-shop or from the Government stores. Moreover, the descriptions of clothing required depended in a great measure on accidental circumstances. The hon. Member complained that the stock of warm clothing was excessive in relation to the issues last year; but these would have been much larger if the Channel Squadron-one of the largest divisions of the fleet-had wintered, as usual, on the Home Station, instead of in a warm climate-between Lisbon and the Azores. As, for these reasons, it was obvious that the Return of the hon. Gentleman opposite was not worth the paper on which it was written, he thought it his duty to move for a more comprehensive Return, which he thought would show the real aspects of the case, and it was this Return to which he wished to call attention. The Return embraced the total quantities of stores in each of the three victualling yards of Deptford, Gosport, and Plymouth, the

prices at which the purchases were made under the last contracts, the date of the last purchase or contract-a point which was material as bearing on the censure implied on former Boards-the quantities issued during each of the last three years, the average issues for periods of three, five, and seven years, and the length of time the quantities in stock would last on each average. In the first place, he would proceed to show what would have been the state of the case if he had done as the hon. Gentleman had done, and if, in 1868, when preparing the Navy Estimates, he had called for Returns of the stock, not in one, but in the three yards, and had compared those Returns with the consumption for the preceding year. If he had done so they would have shown a very different state of things from that shown by the hon. Gentleman, and, in hardly any instance, would the stock have appeared excessive. He did not know what the stock was on the 1st of January, 1868; but he would assume it was the same as it was on the 1st of January, 1870. The hon. Gentleman had said that, on comparing the store of essence of beef at Deptford in 1870 with the issues in 1869, there was in hand a seven years' supply. The total quantity was 103,900 quarter pints; in 1867, 38,500 were issued for Abyssinia, and 61,200 for general service; so that the stock would have been equal to a supply for one year and eight months, instead of seven years. The hon. Gentleman further said that there was a stock of four years' pickles in hand. The total value of the stock in all the yards was £14; and the value of the stock in the Deptford Yard was £6 98. 2d. It must be gratifying to the House to know that the hon. Member would effect a great saving under this head. The total quantity was 1,305 quarts, and the issues in 1867, after abating 427 quarts for Abyssinia, were 1,370 quarts, so that he (Mr. Corry) would have found a stock less than was necessary for one year's supply, instead of for four years. These two articlesessence of beef and pickles-were the only articles of which the Return showed any extra issues on account of Abyssinia. Next, the hon. Member said there was 6 years' supply of white wine. The total quantity was 22,700 bottles; the issues in 1867 were 17,800 bottles; so that there would have been a sup

ply for about 15 months instead of 6 years. If the hon. Gentleman thought this was an extravagantly large stock he himself must share the responsibility, for the last purchase, as stated in the Return, was made under a contract dated 1869, five months after the service had the advantage of his superintendence of the purchase department. The hon. Gentleman next said there was a supply of saloon candles for 10 years. The total quantity was 45,500 lb., and the issues in 1867 were 18,000 lb., so that there would have been a supply for two years and six months instead of 103 years. He admitted that the quantity was larger than was necessary; but this, he was informed, was owing to a mistake of a clerk in demanding candles instead of pounds. He now came to the famous foot-pieces for stockings. hon. Member in his speech had said

The

"There was an article called foot-pieces for stockings for men. This must have been a nice little job in times past. He had found no less than 50 years' supply of these articles." The job must have been a very little one, because the entire value of the whole stock was only £285. The entire stock was stated to be 9,700, against an issue in 1867 of 6,500; so that, if he had called for a Return to guide him for the Estimates for 1868, he should have found the supply equal to about a year and a-half's consumption instead of 50 years. The history of these foot-pieces was this-In 1866 some benevolent individual suggested to the Duke of Somerset's Board that, as the feet of the men's stockings wore out before the legs, and Jack was very handy with his needle, it would be well that new foot-pieces should be supplied in order that they might be joined on to the sound legs, and accordingly a number of the foot-pieces were purchased with that view. At first these foot-pieces were very popular in the Navy, and in 1867 no less than 6,500 were demanded. For some reason, however, their popularity soon declined, and the consumption fell to 2,506 in 1868, and to 480 in 1869. Perhaps none were being used in 1870, and the hon. Member might then say that there were enough of them in stock to last till the Millennium instead of for 50 years. Then, as to the blue cloth No. 2, with respect to which the hon. Member was more facetious than upon any other article. The hon. Member said

"The right hon. Gentleman talked of starving the Navy, and said they had no cloth-no clothing for the Marines! Good gracious! Of blue cloth No. 2 they had 7 years' supply."

year 1867 in preparing the Estimates of 1868, he should have found nothing very excessive in respect of the articles enumerated. The figures he had quoted showed the total quantities in the three yards on the first of January, 1870, and the time they would last at the rate of issues in 1867, the year preceding that of his Estimates for 1868-69. He would now take the entire quantities of these articles in stock on the 1st of January, 1870, and in the three yards, and would

last three years, instead of in one year, and from one yard only, as had been done by the hon. Gentleman. Essence of beef was sufficient for two years and one month, instead of for seven years, as stated by the hon. Member; pickles, for one year and six months, instead of for four years; white wine, for two years and two months, instead of for six years and six

Now the quantity of blue cloth No. 2 actually in stock, on the 1st of last January, was 35,600 yards, being about half-a-yard per man, while the issue in 1867 was 17,700 yards. Thus the stock would only have met the consumption of two years, instead of 7 years. But the best part of the joke was that the hon. Member himself was respon-compare them with the issues during the sible for any excess in the store of this cloth, because the last purchase of blue cloth was made by himself, under a contract of the 29th of May, 1869. The hon. Member stated that the number of Flushing jackets in stock was equal to 13 years' consumption, whereas the number in stock was 8,900, while the issue in 1867 was 2,800. Thus, the amount of these articles in stock could barely have ex-months; saloon candles, for three years, ceeded three, instead of 13, years' consumption. He had been told that this description of clothing had become unpopular in the Navy; and, as he had already shown, the demand for articles of warm clothing depended, in a great measure, on accidental circumstances. The hon. Member had stated that there was 3 years' consumption of comforters in stock, whereas there was only one year and four months' consumption in stock, calculated on the demands in 1867. Again, of striped shirting, the hon. Member stated that there was five years' consumption in stock, whereas, at the rate of the demands in 1867, there was really only a sufficient supply in hand for one year and two months. In respect of these two last articles the hon. Member was, again, himself responsible, because he had purchased large quantities of them under a contract of May, 1869. The hon. Member had stated that there was seven years' supply of towelling in hand, whereas there was really only two years' supply in stock, at the rate of the issues in 1867. The total quantities in stock on the 1st of January, 1870, in relation to the total issues of 1867 in no case exceeded three years' supply, and in only four out of the ten instances given did it exceed two years' supply. Had he, therefore, adopted the course taken by the hon. Member, and called for Returns of quantities in store, assuming them to be the same as in January last, and the issues for the

Mr. Corry

instead of for ten years and nine months; foot-pieces for stockings, for three years, instead of for 50 years; blue cloth, No. 2, for two years and seven months, instead of for seven years and nine months; Flushing jackets, No. 1, for five years, instead of 13 years; comforters, for one year and nine months, instead of for three years and six months; striped shirting, for one year and ten months, instead of for five years; towellings, for two years and seven months, instead of for seven years. Therefore, taking the entire quantity in stock, it only in one instance exceeded three years' expenditure on the average of three years. The hon. Member, by taking only one yard and one year, had given an entirely false impression of the actual state of things. On the average of five years the stock in no case exceeded 3 years' consumption, and on the average of seven years in no case exceeded the consumption of 3 1-6. The entire value of the various articles enumerated in the three yards was £45,203. The value of the stocks of which the last purchases were made before the present Board came into Office was £18,579, while the value of the articles of which the last purchases were made by the present Board was £26,625. The hon. Member's statement referred to Deptford Yard only, where the entire value of the stock amounted to no more than £38,000, but he informed us that in consequence of his discoveries in that yard he had advised the reduction of the

Victualling Vote by £47,000. It would House would remember that he had be interesting to know on what principle many other things to do at the time, and he had given this advice, as it might that was the reason he had been foolish throw some light upon the manner in enough last year to order a quantity of which the large reductions effected by articles, of which there was already five the present Board of Admiralty had been or six years' supply in the yards. The made under the various heads of ex- right hon. Gentleman had spoken of penditure. white wine returned during the Abyssinian War. The excessive supply in this case arose from an error by a clerk in the victualling department, who wrote gallons instead of bottles, and caused the delivery of six times the quantity wanted. Very much the same thing occurred with respect to candles. The history of the stockings, as it had been told him by an hon. Member whom

MR. BAXTER said, the right hon. Gentleman had characterized the Returns which he had laid upon the Table of the House as worthless; but he submitted that the figures of the right hon. Gentleman were both false and misleading. The right hon. Gentleman had taken no account whatever of the stocks in the depôts abroad, or of the recent reduction in the number of men, which he had no reason to doubt, was simply had been reduced from 72,000 in 1864 this. A gentleman in the Midland Counto 61,000 in 1870. The statements he ties, with "a bee in his bonnet," conhad made on a former occasion had been ceived the notion that one pair of stockfounded on the result of inquiries insti- ing legs would wear out three pair of tuted by the Captain Superintendent of stocking feet; and he thought it exceedDeptford Dockyard, whose zeal and ingly probable that the sailors of the ability he trusted the Admiralty would fleet, having little to do, could spend not suffer to pass unnoticed. The officers their time in knitting the feet to the who had conducted the inquiry had ex-stockings. Nobody, however, would buy pressly informed him that the year 1867, his wares, until, by some mysterious inwhich had been taken by the right hon. fluence at the Admiralty that never could Gentleman as the basis of his calcula-be explained, he got them to take the tions, was so exceptional that it must be greater part of his stock. The other altogether excluded from the inquiry on day, what was left of it, was sold for account of the Abyssinian War. mere waste by his hon. Friend the MemMR. CORRY stated that he had ex-ber for Sheffield. As regards blue cloth, pressly excluded the items applicable to the Abyssinian War from his figures.

the right hon. Gentleman had stated that there was only two and a-half years' MR. BAXTER observed that those supply; but he had been assured by the items were so mixed up with the other officials that there was not less than eight matters that it was impossible to sepa- and a-half years' stock; and, notwithrate them. The right hon. Gentleman standing this, he was this year asked to had complained that he omitted in his buy 2,000 yards more. The result of statement to refer to certain dockyards, these discoveries was, that the Governand had confined himself to Deptford; ment were able to take off at the last but the right hon. Gentleman knew the moment, £43,000. The savings in the stock in these yards was exceedingly Victualling Vote alone amounted to no small; and the right hon. Gentleman less than £150,000 on the current year. had also remarked that if he had gone He was not surprised the right hon. some years further back, he would have Gentleman should have been mislead by found much larger quantities of surplus the information given him by the vicstores. In reply, he said he could only tualling department from time to time; speak as to what he found when he for, the more he looked into it, the more came into Office; and what he did find he was astonished, that a great country was great excess in the public Depart- should have been conducting its busiments. The right hon. Gentleman had ness concerns in so extraordinary a also remarked that he (Mr. Baxter) must manner. He would give an example bear his share of the responsibility, as or two. Take the article of tea. When he was at the head of the Department that article was wanted, the departwhen some of this surplus was accumu- ment, instead of giving an order for lated. He was willing to share the re- it, issued advertisements which consponsibility attaching to him; but the tained conditions and fines of all sorts,

« PredošláPokračovať »