the duties now discharged by quarter- COLONEL NORTH said, he would call masters should in future be discharged attention to the Vote of £11,500 for the by the adjutants and the quartermaster- maintenance of military lunatics. He sergeants. He did not think the pro- wished to know whether any of them posed scale of retiring allowances was at were confined in Netley Military Hospital? all insufficient. With regard to the pro- MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he wished posal of which the hon. and gallant to ask the Secretary of State for War, Member for Buckingham (Sir Harry If he was sure that medicines were proVerney) had given Notice as to the bil-perly purchased, and that the Army was leting of the Militia, he could not have not like another Government Departagreed to that Motion if it had been ment, paying 9s. for an article which pressed. Every arrangement that could ought to cost only 38. ? be made to minimize billeting, or to induce the regiments of that force to come out at the time of the year when they could be placed under canvas, should have his cordial support; but it was impossible for him to give the hon. and gallant Member (Sir Harry Verney) the assurance to which his Notice of Motion pointed. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to. SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. SUPPLY considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) (1.) £43,400, Divine Service. (2.) £45,600, Martial Law. MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he wished for an explanation of the increase in the item of travelling expenses for prisoners, and also on the subject of the item for deputy-judge advocates, and of the item for prison charges. MR. CARDWELL said, he believed that great care was taken in the purchases of medicines for the Army, and he was not aware that for medicines which ought only to have cost 3s. a sum of 9s. had been paid. Vote agreed to. (4.) £720,000, Militia and Inspection of Reserve Forces. COLONEL WILSON-PATTEN said, he would beg to ask whether any change had been made in respect of the pensions to adjutants of Militia? In consequence of the small amount of these pensions, there was little or no inducement to adjutants to retire. It was desirable that some change should be made if no change had already occurred. MAJOR GENERAL SIR PERCY HER MR. CARDWELL said, he could not say that any change had been made in the system of retiring allowances to adbut he had under consideration jutants; the question whether the rule should not be that adjutants should retire at the age of 60, unless the commanding officer interposed with a recommendation to the MR. CARDWELL said, that while contrary. At present the rule was that an adjutant might retire at the age of 66. there was a decrease of £10,704 in the establishment charges, there was an in- BERT said, he desired some explanation crease of £5,000 in travelling expenses. as to the system of inspection of Reserve This increase was caused by the carrying Forces. He believed that at present out of a recommendation of the Commission on Courts-martial, to the effect that on a recent occasion two inspecting some confusion existed; for he heard that there should be one central prison. officers-one from Manchester and the By the establishment of a central prison other from Plymouth-attended at the the War Office had been able to shut up same place to conduct an inspection. no fewer than six military prisons. The They tossed in order to arrive at a deGovernment had not acted on the recom-cision as to which should inspect, but mendation of the Commission in respect both dined at the mess. of increasing the number of deputyjudge advocates; because, under existing circumstances, they had not thought it expedient to do so. Vote agreed to. before heard of the occurrence just menMR. CARDWELL said, he had not tioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman. A most important change had been made, in accordance with which the (3.) £247,500, Medical Establishments inspection of Reserve Forces would be and Services. under the control of the officer command Mr. Cardinell ing in the district. If the mistake stated the permanent Staff. If the obligation by the hon. and gallant Gentleman had of supplying barracks rested on the occurred, it was not perhaps to be much counties, the obligation ought to be enwondered at, as the new system had only forced in all cases. been a few weeks in operation. COLONEL BARTTELOT said, he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to postpone this Vote for the Reserve Forces. An important discussion on the subject of those forces was to be raised by the noble Lord the Member for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho), who was not now present; and he thought the Vote ought not to be taken till after that discussion. MR. CARDWELL said, he must appeal to the Committee. The Session was advancing, and he had had the Army Estimates on the Paper several nights without being able to get a Vote. He was quite prepared to discuss the subject of our Reserve Forces. He would, however, make a compromise with the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Barttelot). He was willing to postpone the portion of the Vote that related to the Volunteers. He believed there would be no controversy as regarded the Vote for the Militia. SIR HARRY VERNEY said, he believed that if the officers of Militia were appointed by the Crown through the Horse Guards, that mode of appointment would induce many more gentlemen to join the force. MR. CARDWELL said, he wished the number of Militia officers were larger than it was; but he believed there was a considerable desire on the part of gentlemen to join the force. MR. GOLDNEY said, he wished to know what was the meaning of the sum of £39,600, under the head of lodging allowances for furniture in connection with the Militia, in lieu of the charge for lodgings, furniture, billet-money, &c. The different counties of England had expended large sums in erecting barracks for the accommodation of the Militia, and, therefore, he was unable to understand how this expenditure was accounted for. MR. CARDWELL said, that the lodging allowance was made to the Militia at the same rate as to the Line, while under temporary duty. If they were put into barracks they only received half the amount for furniture. MR. GOLDNEY said, that £35,000 was put down for the accommodation of MR. CARDWELL said, the obligation was in force. MR. MUNTZ asked what was the effective force of the Militia last year? MR. CARDWELL said, the effective force last year called up for drill was 79,000, and there were 6,216 absent. COLONEL BARTTELOT said, he wished to know what would be the number of the Militia Reserve this year; and whether it was true that the second surgical examination of men who had been in the Militia had been dispensed with on their entering the Militia Reserve; and that the result of such change had not been that an inferior class of men had been enrolled in that Reserve Force? MR. CARDWELL said, that the second surgical examination, having been found unnecessary and very vexatious to the men, had been dispensed with on their entering the Militia Reserve. As to the number of Militia Reserve, the whole of the Returns were not yet in; but he felt very confident that the Militia Reserve would be entirely filled. MAJOR-GENERAL SIR PERCY HERBERT said, that the former regulations had required that the men entering the Reserve should be 32 inches round the chest, and that they should be 5 feet 4 inches in height. He thought that the object of the change had been to throw dust in the eyes of the public with regard to the strength of the Militia Reserve, which it was desired to make as strong upon paper as possible. MR. CARDWELL said, there was no intention of throwing dust in the eyes of the public with respect to this question. His only desire had been to draw into the Militia Reserve Force the men who had been already passed for the Militia. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that it was of the greatest importance that the public should be informed what was the actual strength of the Militia Reserve. He also wished to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman with regard to his hon. and gallant Friend (General Lindsay), who was at the head of the Reserve Forces in the War Office. That hon. and gallant Gentleman had been sent to Canada to bring home the troops who were at present in Canada, but who were to be brought back to this country, in pursuance of the colonial policy of statement that the Yeomen were drawn the Government. He wished to know from a class who could not afford the time how long the hon. and gallant Gentle- to learn the duties efficiently. The hon. man was to be absent for that purpose; Member for North Northamptonshire and, whether the intentions of Her (Mr. Hunt) and Kendal (Mr. Whitwell) Majesty's Government had undergone had stated as much. He therefore asked any alteration with respect to bringing whether it was reasonable to spend home the troops now in Canada, in conse- £81,000 on a force of 15,000 imperfectly quence of recent occurrences in that part drilled cavalry soldiers. If the men of the Empire? were to be regarded merely as mounted MR. CARDWELL, in reply, stated riflemen, why was it that only 3,000 that the number of the Militia Reserve, rifles were issued to them? County as far as the Returns had been sent in, Members, he knew, upheld the Yeoamounted to 16,312, but that 43 regi-manry from social considerations; they ments had not yet sent in their Returns. thought it a pity to put an end to an He believed, however, that the full num-institution which maintained happy ber of 20,000 would be brought into the social relationships between different Reserve. General Lindsay had been sent out for a limited period at the request of the Canadian Government, who were anxious to have the advantage of his assistance in forming their military force. The intentions of her Majesty's Government with regard to the withdrawal of the troops from Canada had undergone no change in consequence of recent events in that country. VISCOUNT ENFIELD said, he would beg to supplement the answer of the right hon. Gentleman to the hon. Member for Chippenham by stating that in many counties the accommodation for the permanent Militia Staff was not sufficient, and that, therefore, lodging allowances had to be made. MR. CARDWELL said, he would make inquiries into the matter. Vote agreed to. (5.) Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £81,900, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for Yeomanry Cavalry, which will come in course of payment from the 1st day of April 1870 to the 31st day of March 1871, inclusive." he was SIR HENRY HOARE said, that when he objected to this Vote last year met by statements that steps were being taken to render it more efficient, but that promise had not been fulfilled. Notwithstanding the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that breech-loading rifles were to be served out to this force, only 3,200 of such weapons had actually been issued to them. Sir John Burgoyne said it took three years to make an efficient cavalry soldier; and he (Sir Henry Hoare) appealed to Yeomanry officers opposite to confirm his Sir John Pakington classes. In Buckinghamshire, he understood the Militia was not to be called out for fear of the smallpox which prevailed in the county. This £81,000 would be spent on a great county job which he resisted in the interest of the taxpayer. He must take the sense of the House against the Vote. MR. BARNETT said, he could not agree with the hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Hoare), whom he knew to have a great antipathy to the Yeomanry Force; indeed, he might say they were the "favourite aversion" of the hon. Member for Chelsea. The utility of this force had been demonstrated over and over again, and they might be sure that the present Government, with their economical views, would not have proposed the present Vote unless they were satisfied that the force was one that deserved to be maintained. As one practically acquainted with the Yeomanry he would say with regard to the new regulations, that there was some difference of opinion among the officers. He knew that the Yeomanry were in a high state of efficiency, especially considering the amount of drill they went through, and the force, he believed, was fairly reported on by inspecting officers. His own opinion was rather in favour of instructing them in the use of the sword, as the class from which they were drawn-men with strong arms and a good seat in a saddle-were more likely to be effective with that weapon than with a rifle, and might become ridiculous when skirmishing on foot. However, there might be, undoubtedly, a very wholesome rivalry wherever butts had been provided for the Volunteers, and a tendency to practise shooting which should be encouraged as much as possible. The arrangement to reduce the number of officers was wise, and he should like to know whether the officers reduced would still hold their rank nominally, and would be eligible to take the place of the permanent officers when absent or disabled an arrangement which would be very satisfactory to those who must now become supernumeraries. He believed no impediments would be found in getting the men to attend the extra drills laid down in the new programme, as already several regiments had expressed their readiness to fall in with it, and he for one could say that a little judicious arrangement on the part of the officers would obviate every difficulty. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would be more explicit in regard to the regulations by which, in case of accidents to horses, some allowance might be made by the Government if it was shown that the mishap occurred while on preliminary drills. When a farmer was asked to go out on extra days his horse was liable to injury, and it would be satisfactory to know that the Government would not grudge some compensation in such a case. MR. BROMLEY-DAVENPORT said, that by the new regulations three of the eleven troops of Staffordshire Yeomanry, consisting of six squadrons, would be done away with, and the effect would practically be to do away with the regiment itself. He had recommended to the War Office that in the case of a large county like Staffordshire two regiments should be formed, so that they could meet as before, except that the force would be formed of two regiments instead of two wings. The Yeomanry of Staffordshire had preserved the county from a most fearful outbreak, and had received the thanks of the county for their services on that occasion, which happened to be harvest time. The hon. Baronet had stated that rifles were of no use to the Yeomanry, but the truth was that they had been supplied with efficient carbines in lieu of inefficient ones. He agreed with the last speaker, however, that it was a great mistake to dispense altogether with the use of the sword. MAJOR ANSON said, he desired to say a few words in support of the hon. Baronet's (Sir Henry Hoare's) Motion. Last year we had a fairly efficient cavalry force; but at the present moment there was not a single cavalry officer in the British Army who would not say that our cavalry force was entirely destroyed. If, then, the country could not maintain an efficient force like the regular cavalry it ought not to support an inefficient and merely ornamental one like the Yeomanry. We might safely reduce our infantry to a considerable extent, because foot soldiers could be trained in a much shorter time than cavalry, and, moreover, we had the Militia and the Reserve to fall back upon; but the Yeomanry could not be regarded as an efficient Reserve for cavalry. It would be a fatal mistake if the civil power should in the present day use the Yeomanry Cavalry for the suppression of civil riots. The best thing to do in such an event would be to employ the regular troops. While admitting that the Yeomanry performed their duties marvellously well, considering the few opportunities they had of attending drill, he must express his belief that there was not a general in the Army who would employ them in active service in the field. In conclusion, he would remark that half-trained infantry would not inflict so much injury on their friends as a half-drilled cavalry regiment. MR. NEVILLE - GRENVILLE said, he could not perceive the force of the argument of the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Major Anson), who stated that the circumstance of the efficiency of our regular cavalry force being destroyed was a reason for not maintaining the only other cavalry we had. As to the value of the Yeomanry Cavalry, the opinion of general officers, from the Duke of Wellington down to those who were now at the Horse Guards, was diametrically opposite to that entertained by the hon. Member. If the hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Hoare) and other inferior Members of the House continually brought forward complaints of this kind it was the duty of the leaders of the House to say distinctly whether the corps was useful to the country or not. As long, however, as the services of the Yeomanry were deemed useful, they would continue to be given. He trusted that next year the hon. Member who last spoke would be guided by the Government he usually followed, instead of launching forth his very crude notions respecting a force which he understood as little as he appreciated. in such terms as he had used. What, he would ask, had been done to destroy that cavalry which, according to his hon. and gallant Friend, was last year so fine a force? The number of the regiments in the country had been added to, though in order to produce economy the depôt troops had been reduced from two to one-that was to say, we had seven troops, in order that when six went abroad there might be one left at home. He could not imagine that, adding two LORD GARLIES said, this was an unfortunate time for an ardent supporter of the Government to bring forward the present Motion, because the policy of the Government had been the reduction of the regular and the increase of the Reserve Forces. During his brief military career he had held a subordinate position under a general officer, whose duty it was to inspect many Yeomanry regiments, and his opinion as to their to the number of regiments and divalue was quite opposed to that of the hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Hoare). One point had been entirely overlooked in this discussion. In case of invasion a mounted force would be required for patrolling, and what force was so suited for such service as one composed of men who were conversant with every road and lane in their county. minishing by one the number of troops could fairly be described in the terms employed by his hon. and gallant Friend. But, however that might be, our cavalry force, though extremely efficient, was very small, and it was necessary that we should have a Reserve which would furnish escorts and outposts when required, and for those purposes the Yeomanry would be found most valuable. The reports of the inspecting officers, he might add, were generally favourable to the force, and he hoped, under those circumstances, the Committee would adhere to the decision which was arrived at last year. MR. CARDWELL said, he should not defend this Vote on the ground that the Yeomanry Cavalry were at all required in aid of the civil power. Indeed, he entirely concurred in the opinion of those who thought that if unfortunately we were obliged to have recourse to military force, we ought to employ the regular MAJOR GENERAL SIR PERCY HERArmy. He defended the Vote on the BERT said, it must not be argued that ground that we had in this country no because one branch of the service had conscription, and that it was desirable been injudiciously reduced the same to secure the voluntary services of all operation ought to be applied to all. He classes of Her Majesty's subjects. Last protested against the remarks which had year the House had decided, by a large been made with a view to disparage the majority, that the Yeomanry Cavalry Yeomanry Cavalry. There was a great Force was to be continued; but that it deal of nonsense spoken about regular was to be put upon a more economical and irregular troops. Every officer of and efficient footing. To carry out those experience would, he believed, be able objects the Government had used their to make good use of the latter as well best exertions. That the force had as of the former. He would not ask been placed on a more economical foot-them, of course, to perform the same ing was shown by the sum which was duties as regular soldiers; but when asked for in the Estimates, while its fairly organized, an irregular force might greater efficiency might be inferred from be found very valuable. the fact that to 22 regiments 6,687 Westley-Richards carbines had been issued, with which some of the Yeomanry officers had declared themselves to be greatly pleased, stating that the men could do anything with them at 800 yards. Whatever might be the opinion of the Yeomanry, they constituted the oldest part of our Volunteer Force, their institution being due to Lord Chatham, in 1761. He was sorry, therefore, to hear so distinguished an officer as his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bewdley (Major Anson) speak of them Mr. Neville-Grenville MR. D. DALRYMPLE said, he must express his regret at not hearing any conclusive testimony to show that the Yeomanry Cavalry had increased in efficiency. SIR HENRY HOARE said, in reference to the remarks of the Secretary of State for War, he might point to the testimony of the hon. and gallant Member for Bewdley (Major Anson) to show that the Yeomanry were not efficient troops for the performance of the duties of outposts. It was considered by many experienced officers that the best descrip |