Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that its principal object was to extend to Ireland those provisions of the English Bankruptcy Law by which the distinctions between traders and non-traders were abolished. This was a step which, in England, had given great satisfaction to the commercial world, and had met with universal approval in Westminster Hall. He anticipated no opposition to his present Motion.

The measure had twice passed this House, and had not failed to become law through any open opposition; but had been put aside in the House of Commons in a way not very respectful to their Lordships or to Ireland, where its defeat was attributed to private and personal motives. He proposed to add to the Bill other provisions, enabling creditors to appoint a trustee to manage a bankrupt's estate; but if these were objected to he was willing to restore the Bill to its original shape; and another providing that persons having privilege of Parliament may be adjudged bankrupt in Ireland. It was a well-founded Irish grievance that, where no political or party interest was excited, questions affecting the material wellbeing of the country were neglected, and it was this feeling which prompted the Petition presented by a noble Lord Lord Talbot de Malahide) last night in favour of the repeal of the Union. A Commission reported some years ago on the practice and procedure of the Courts of Law and Equity, and a Bill relating to Chancery was passed with no great delay, because it created a very good piece

THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he gave every possible credit to the noble law in Ireland; but, with regard to this Marquess for his desire to improve the particular Bill, he could not take upon himself to give his assent to every portion of it. Moreover, it did not, as appeared to be the noble Marquess' intentions, entirely assimilate the Irish to the English laws. It was very desirable that the subject should be considered, and it would be unreasonable in the highest degree to oppose the second reading of the Bill; but when in Committee it was very probable that it would require close attention.

Motion agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 19th

instant.

WAR OFFICE BILL-(No. 74.) (The Lord Northbrook.)

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

LORD NORTHBROOK, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to provide for the Secretary of State for War greater assistance than he now possessed in the other House of Parliament. He believed that a very short consideration of the subject would convince their Lordships that this was a desirable object, and that it would be. effected by this Bill in a proper manner. A very slight consideration of the multifarious duties performed by the Secretary for War would convince their Lordships that the satisfactory performance of them overtasked the energy, industry, and ability of any single man. The Army Estimates, for instance, after the reductions which the Government

Lord was assisted-much as it was proposed that the Secretary for War should be-by Colleagues responsible for different portions of the administration, who undertook to answer for their several departments in the House of Commons; and the presence in the House of Commons of distinguished naval officers had not been found to impair the responsibility of the First Lord. On the contrary, it had been found an advantage that he should be thus assisted. So in the Home Department, the Secretary of State was assisted in the House of Commons by the Under Secretary, to whom was entrusted certain defined duties and the task of carrying certain measures through Parliament; and this arrangement did not weaken the responsibility of his chief. The second objection which might be raised to the Bill was, that it would be difficult to find an officer with sufficient experience for the appointment of Surveyor General, who was also possessed of a seat in the House of Commons. To this he would reply that if no such officer could be found, their position would only be what it now was. The Bill made it possible, but not necessary, that the Surveyor General of Ordnance should have a seat in the House of Commons. The first consideration would be to find the proper man for the Office. If he had, or should acquire, a seat in the House, so much the better; if not, the want of it would be no impediment to his selection for the Office. In former years the Master General of the Board of Ordnance, the Surveyor General, and other officers, were eligible for seats in the House of Commons; but this did not prevent the appointment to those posts of men outside the House. Sir George Murray and Sir Hussey Vivian had held the appointment of Master General both in and out of Parliament. General Peel, General Anson, and General Fox-men highly competent to perform any duty of the kind-had sat in the House of Commons; and he saw no reason to suppose that the constituencies would object to return distinguished military, as they certainly did return naval officers. He was convinced that it would be found possible to select for the Office of Surveyor General of the Ordnance officers of the highest distinction, who should also be Members of the House of Commons. Somebody had been good

nization, in 1860, said that if one or more of the heads of Departments had seats in the House of Commons it would be a great public advantage, especially when the Secretary of State was a civilian; for when such a Secretary spoke on military subjects his authority was questioned, and when he answered military questions he was told that he merely retailed the opinions of others. If he had at his side as a colleague a soldier of distinction, it would, in Lord Herbert's opinion-and he hoped that the weight of such an opinion would have much influence on their Lordships-be a great advantage, and the Committee adopted this view in their Report. The duties of the Financial Secretary would be mainly in connection with the details of the finances of the Army; and he would assist the Secretary of State in the detailed discussion of the Estimates, with the minutiae of which the Secretary of State must almost necessarily be ignorant. He believed that it would be very advantageous if a Parliamentary officer had a larger share in the decision of questions of detail than is now the case. No one could entertain a higher opinion than he did of the ability of the permanent servants of the Crown; but in cases such as frequently arosewhere considerations of equity pointed in one direction, but strict regulation and precedent in another, the advantage was great that the decision should rest with a man who would feel that it must stand the test of discussion in Parliament. The duties of the Surveyor General and Financial Secretary would be defined by Orders in Council, which would be laid before Parliament. This, he believed, was a constitutional course, and would tend clearly to define duties. The only objections which he could anticipate to the Bill were two. The first was, that it would lessen the responsibility of the Secretary for War. Now, this might, in a modified sense, be the case, as far as it imposed a certain degree of responsibility on the officers thus created; but nobody conversant with the mass of business transacted at the War Office and Horse Guards could suppose that the Secretary of State could really be personally responsible for every transaction and detail of his Department; in the words of the old maxim-Nemo tenetur ad impossibile. In the Navy Department the First

enough to describe the Bill as "a Whig job"-alleging its main object to be to create two new Offices under the Crown; but its almost unanimous adoption by the other House was sufficient to refute this assertion. Had it been designed to perpetrate a job, the obvious plan would have been to create two or three Offices tenable for life, with large salaries, to which supporters of the Government might have been appointed; whereas the Bill did not propose the creation of permanent appointments. The truth was, that an absolute necessity existed for the Bill. It was now admitted on all hands that the consolidation of Offices which was carried out after the Crimean War was pushed somewhat too far. At one time, besides the large representation of the Board of Ordnance in the House of Commons, several important portions of Army business were represented by the Secretary to the Treasury and the Home Secretary. If the Department was excessively represented in the House of Commons at that time, it certainly was inadequately represented now, when it was considered what an immense accession of duties had been thrown upon it. The East India Company's troops had been amalgamated with the Imperial Army, the Volunteer force had been created, questions exciting much attention connected with the Reserves had arisen, improvements had occurred in ordnance and fortifications, and this great increase in the labour of Army administration surely justified the present measure. He hoped that he had now sufficiently explained the purport of the Bill; and that, seeing it had received the almost unanimous assent of the other House-which it principally concerned their Lordships would find no difficulty in reading it the second time.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2."(The Lord Northbrook.)

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND said, he did not intend to offer any opposition to the second reading; but to some of the provisions of the Bill he entertained a strong objection, and he had listened with increasing disappointment to the noble Lord's explanation of the grounds on which it had been introduced. In regard to what the noble Lord had said about the imputation of jobbery that had been attached to the Bill, he (the

Lord Northbrook

Duke of Richmond) not only did not impute any such motive, but he wished that one of the Offices had been made permanent, even though it might have occasioned a cry that the Government were creating places for their supporters. He must also observe that the noble Lord had certainly advanced a strange argument in favour of the Bill, when he had said that the necessary ignorance of a civilian Secretary of War upon many points of military detail rendered it necessary to provide him with efficient Parliamentary assistance. Surely, the better plan would be to find a Secretary for War who was not ignorant on such points. He intended no imputation whatever upon the military accomplishments of the present Secretary of State for War; but the noble Lord had advanced the natural ignorance of civilians as a reason for this Bill. It was true, as the noble Lord had said, that the curiosity of Members of the House of Commons extended to all questions connected with the Army, as to all other subjects; but he (the Duke of Richmond) confessed that he thought it would be well if the system of crossexamining Ministers upon the details of Army management and discipline, were not pushed to quite such rigorous extremes. There could hardly, however, be a greater multiplicity of business in the War Office than in the Home Department. Was there not quite as much detail and of a varied character, connected with one Office as with the other? The evidence of the two officers of great eminence which had been cited, said that responsibility existed, but within fixed limits, and that the Secretary of State for War was responsible in one sense and not in another. He (the Duke of Richmond) did not quite understand this. He had always understood that sible to the country for everything that the head of a Department was respontook place in his Department, and that no understanding or arrangements with regard to his subordinates could divest him of the responsibility which Secretaries of State had hitherto always had attached to them. The noble Lord also stated that the Army Estimates, and the details arising out of them, required that the Secretary of State for War should have assistance; but no amount of assistance would take from him the necessity of answering all those Questions