thought the introduction into the Indian Council of gentlemen unconnected with the public services would dispel the erroneous impression which had taken possession of many minds that either the Home or the Indian Government had always been opposed to or had neglected the development of, the resources of India, and had discouraged the efforts of European enterprize when directed to that end. There was not a single undertaking now flourishing in India of which the Govern Council as the introduction into it of the commercial element. Those with whom the Natives had most sympathy were the mercantile classes, and the more broad our commercial relationships were made, the more firmly would our Empire in that country be established. The increase in the cotton cultivation of India had been effected chiefly through the agency of commercial men, and not through the instrumentality of the Indian Government. These were reasons for accepting the Resolution. It had, how-ment of that country had not been the ever, been alleged that fit men could not be found among the retired merchants who were prepared to occupy seats at the Council; but surely our duty was to make the office sufficiently important to attract men of the very highest stamp. Further, it was urged that the Council was already too full, owing to its containing a number of men who had a life interest in the appointment. For the sake of so important an object as they had in view, it ought not to be very difficult to provide a sufficient inducement to some of the older members of the Indian Council to retire. As to the objection that there would be nothing in particular for commercial members to do when admitted to the Council, there was not a single question of Indian commerce that was not of most vital importance in connection with all the other departments, whether of finance, of public works, or even the military branch itself, because as long as the commercial affairs of India were in a satisfactory state, their military power was not likely to be called into action He should like to see a Secretary of State for Education in India; and at any rate men who had a knowledge of business would afford valuable assistance to the Council. He regretted that the proposal had not been more cordially met by the Government. In conclusion, if the hon. Member for Liverpool insisted on dividing, he would go into the Lobby with him; but he would suggest that the hon. Gentleman should for the present be content with the amount of sympathy which his Motion had elicited. SIR CHARLES WINGFIELD said, he was glad to find the attention of the commercial community was being directed to the affairs of India in the manner which had been illustrated by the debate, for that country could not but benefit by consideration of this kind. He Mr. Graham pioneer. For instance-steam navigation, postal travelling, transport of goods, and tea cultivation, had all been promoted by the Government, which had retired when private enterprize appeared in the field; and even the railways were not to be excluded from the list, because the Government 5 per cent guarantee found the money for their construction. The presence of commercial men in the Indian Council, and the responsibility they would thus incur for the due management of the Indian revenues, would strengthen the hands of the Secretary of State and make it more easy for him to resist the pressure sometimes brought to bear upon him by bodies in this country to sanction chimerical projects, such as the railway to Rangoon and Western China, or inconsiderate and hasty outlays upon public works. If, however, the commercial element were to be largely infused into the Council, it would be necessary to increase the number of the members, for the duties connected with controlling the government of 150,000,000 of people, and the conduct of our relations with the Native rulers of 50,000,000 more, were enormous; and he doubted whether commercial gentlemen of the qualifications and standing which it was desirable to secure would be found ready to give up their own lucrative pursuits in order to accept an office the remuneration attached to which was so paltry. The proposal to attach some honorary rank or distinction to the office was open to various objections, one of the most obvious of which was that the value of the honours would be diminished by making them follow from the mere tenure of office instead of being treated as the rewards of distinguished service in office-the principle on which they had hitherto been bestowed. The results he anticipated from the adoption of the hon. Member for Liverpool's Motion were rather of a ne gative character. He did not believe it would alter the principles on which the Government of India was conducted, nor did he think any alteration of those principles was required; but it would satisfy the wish expressed by an important class and tend to a better appreciation of the value of the Council. He thought the suggestion of the hon. Member for Manchester (Sir Thomas Bazley) for the creation of a special department in the Government of India of Trade, Commerce, and Agriculture, presided over by a gentleman appointed in England, was far better than the proposal of the hon. Member for Liverpool; and the experience of the working of the special departments of legislation and finance in India had been satisfactory. MR. GLADSTONE: I would presume to say, with reference to some remarks which have been made upon the speech of my hon. Friend the Under Secretary for India, that I think these comments were made upon an insufficient recollection of one of the most important sentences in that speech. My hon. Friend began by expressing his concurrence, to a very great extent, with the general tenour of the opinions advanced by previous speakers, and then went on to state the qualifications which he attached to that concurrence. It seems to me the effect of that has been that the qualifications were remembered while the very considerable amount of concurrence, expressed by my hon. Friend in the first instance, was forgotten by some of those who had heard him. I do not think that such a discouraging view should be taken of the manner in which my hon. Friend took up the question, and I cannot but think that the real object of the Motion has been attained. I do not care to judge of a Motion of this kind by an exact criticism of its terms, or by endeavouring to hold the Mover bound to everything it expresses. But I think the circumstance that a Motion of this kind must be interpreted rather with reference to its general object than to all its precise expressions, constitutes a strong reason for that which I will urge upon the House-namely, that it is not very desirable to adopt it as a vote binding upon the House, but that it should be regarded as affording an opportunity for the expression of opinions which, proceeding from Gentlemen of great experience and capacity, must have an influ ence upon the conduct of the Government. There is no doubt with regard to the Motion itself; but it does not dispose of the whole subject with which it deals. It is evident that several hon. Gentlemen are not disposed to consider that the entire subject would be satisfactorily treated by the mere assertion that certain members conversant with trade and commerce ought to be introduced in the Council of India. My hon. Friend behind me has just said that the members of the Council ought rather to be enlarged; others had said that the restriction which prevents their sitting in Parliament ought to be removed. Each of these opinions relates to a very important subject which is not included in the Resolution; and each of them is directly connected with the purpose of the Resolution, which I take to be somewhat wider than is indicated by its exact terms. The hon. Member asks the House to vote that it is desirable that the Council of India should embrace amongst its members persons practically conversant with the trade and commerce of India; and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz) has pointed out several shortcomings or positive errors of administration, which he thinks prove manifest deficiencies in the present Government. But these errors or defects may be removed by other means than the introduction of persons practically conversant with the trade and commerce of India. If we adopt the Resolution, we bind ourselves to choose from a very narrow field. I conceive that those who are connected with the trade of India are not a very numerous class, and of that class a very large proportion are entirely beyond our reach, and it would be out of our power to bring them into the Indian Council. Many are actively engaged in their own pursuits; some having been unsuccessful with their own affairs do not give promise of administrative capacity. There are others, again, who having been most successful, have passed the time at which they can any longer exercise their faculties in a manner requiring continuous strain; and others again, because of their ripe experience and ripe age, would not submit to the amount of labour, involving something like drudgery, which the Council of India requires. Do not let the hon. Member think I am urging these things as against the spirit of his think of resorting to that method of moving the Previous Question, which is sometimes useful; but I am sure I may rely upon the hon. Member, and those who support him, to take the course which circumstances suggest, and allow the Government, and my noble Friend the Secretary of State for India (the Duke of Argyll), an opportunity of considering the general tenor and purport of the sentiments expressed in this debate. I am quite sure that, on his part, I may say, as has been intimated already, that no one would approach the consideration of a question of this kind less encumbered with prejudices than the noble Duke, or with a greater inclination to give effect to every reasonable expectation. Motion; it is quite otherwise. If I understand his view, it is that there ought to be in the Council of India a less unvarying predominance of the element of the old official service of India, and a greater variety of type, a freer atmosphere, and more of that contact of various elements of mental power, ability, and experience, out of which all true excellence proceeds. But I do not gather that there is any desire to tie down the Government to one particular kind of remedy. I quite admit that, for the purpose of remedying in the Council the defect which has been described, if such a defect exists, the selection of persons conversant with the trade and commerce of India would be a subject well deserving of consideration. At the same time, the choice of the Secretary of State MR. GRAVES said, his reference to would be unduly fettered if, instead of distinctions had been misunderstood looking for that capacity which a gene- by the hon. Member for Gravesend ral experience in trade and commerce gave, he were restricted exclusively to those whose experience had been acquired in India. If you wanted a capable administration, you should look not so much to the positive knowledge of a man as his general training and mental aptitude; a man who was gifted with elasticity of thought and robustness of mind would be more useful than one who merely possessed a greater stock of positive knowledge. The general effect of this debate has been to signify the sense of the House of Commons, as represented by a number of Gentlemen very well qualified to express its sentiments, that it is desirable to modify, and, if possible, enlarge the circle of those elements of which the Indian Council is composed. If that be so, I earnestly hope that the hon. Gentleman, and those who sympathize with him, will be satisfied to allow that expression of opinion to have due weight where it ought to be carefully considered. I hope he will not be disposed to ask us to bind ourselves to the adoption of the particular terms of a Resolution which, on the one hand, is embarrassing, because it conveys that sort of vague direction which it is very difficult to obey, and because it would diminish the responsibility of the Government rather than enhance it; and, on the other, is open to exception, inasmuch as the nature of the remedy it proposes is somewhat less broad and extended in its scope than the defect, if it existed, would require. I cannot Mr. Gladstone (Sir Charles Wingfield). What he had suggested was, that if in administering the affairs of India as a member of the Council, any commercial man displayed energy, zeal, and power, he was just as much entitled to receive the favour of his Sovereign as anyone who had served in a military or civil capacity; and such an honour might induce commercial men to accept office in the Council, though the mere remuneration would prove unavailing. The hon. Member for Manchester (Sir Thomas Bazley) was mistaken in supposing that he had no case because he had put forward no grievances-he had studiously avoided making complaints. He had no wish to weaken the power and prestige of our Indian Government-his wish was to strengthen and raise it; he sought rather to show that the desire to deal with its administration sprang from a sense of our responsibility, and a wish to make more perfect the Government on which depended the welfare of some 200,000,000 of the people of India. It was objected by the hon. Member for Manchester that the time was inopportune for the consideration of this question; but surely it was better to discuss a question of this kind when no pressing necessity had arisen, when there was no vacancy to fill up; when, therefore, the subject might be discussed without suspicion of motives, and without any question as to interference with the province of the Government. Until he heard the objections raised by the Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present, House adjourned at a quarter before Nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, 18th May, 1870. MINUTES.]- NEW MEMBER SWORN-George hon. Member he was under the impres- pointed to inquire into the condition of sion that, in the course he had taken, he Children Employed in Agriculture, and had the entire approval of the com- to move a Resolution, when mercial interest of Manchester. One of the Members for that great centre of industry had seconded his Motion, and he was not a little surprised at the objections raised to his proposal by the senior Member. The Under Secretary of State for India had favoured the House with his views, and if the case had rested on his statement, he could not have avoided dividing the House; for although the hon. Gentleman might have been sincere in desiring that there should be an infusion of the commercial element in the Council of India, yet he threw so many difficulties in the way of the scheme that the House must have concluded that he would not assist to carry out the object of the Resolution. The statement of the Prime Minister, however, made his course easy. The right hon. Gentleman said that the adoptior of the Resolution might place difficulties in the way of the Government, and retard the object which those who agreed in the principle of the Motion wished to see achieved. That was enough for him; he had no wish to place difficulties in the way of the Government-he wanted rather to remove them. Besides, in the present state of the House, a mere assertion of the wish of the majority would scarcely be satisfactory. He accepted the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman in good faith. He was sure it was uttered in good faith; and he was perfectly satisfied with the unanimous expression of opinion which the Motion had drawn forth from both sides of the House. He believed that the subject would not have to be again brought before the House, because the Government would carry out what evidently appeared to be the wishes of the House in this matter; but if it should, he would not shrink from asking the House to record its conviction that the time had come when an infusion of the great mercantile mind of England was both desirable and necessary in the Council of State for India. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. * MUNICIPAL BOROUGHS (METROPOLIS) (Mr. Buxton, Mr. Thomas Hughes.) EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN AGRI- with a Lord Mayor at its head; and, se CULTURE.-OBSERVATIONS.. MR. FAWCETT rose to call attention to the Report of the Commission ap condly, that for all local purposes the 10 existing Parliamentary boroughs should be raised into municipal boroughs, and endowed with an organization of whatever kind might be thought most prevailed for so many ages in this suitable, but complete for the manage-island, and had been free from the evils ment of their separate affairs. First, that had at one time injured its effiand foremost, came the question-what ciency. The mere size of London, so system of self-government should be or- far from being an objection, was, in fact, ganized for the metropolis as a whole? an advantage. It had always been found That was the grand question. The that the larger the area of government question of how the comparatively petty the better, as a general rule, that goaffairs of the minor divisions of the me- vernment became; while, vice versa, tropolis should be dealt with was one petty government was usually petty and of great, but it was of less importance mean in its character. A Governing than that respecting the government of Body, elected by 3,000,000 of people, London as a whole. That government would be sure to include many men of had to be created from the very founda- high education and intelligence, and its tions. At present it did not exist. The career would be almost certainly distinonly attempt at an approach to it was guished by superior wisdom and vithe Metropolitan Board of Works; but gour. The corporations of the largest the functions of that Board were confined towns in this country-Liverpool, Manto a few specific duties. It was never chester, and Glasgow-had shown that intended to be, and it could not be, re- the great size of large cities tended to garded as a municipal government of good government. Now, under these London. What was really wanted was Bills, the chief magistrate of the metroa strong central government for the polis would be styled the Lord Mayor whole metropolis-a government that of London, that title being taken away should have control over the police and from the chief magistrate of the City the administration of justice, over all proper, who would in future be called sanitary measures, improvements of the Deputy Mayor, and would always streets and other public works, including step into the place of his chief in his sewerage, gas, bridges, gaols, work- absence. On the principle on which houses, asylums, and so forth. The de- these Bills were founded, the City Cormand for such a central government for poration would, in fact, be elevated and the metropolis had become too loud to extended so as to cover the whole mebe resisted. Her Majesty's Government tropolis. It would, therefore, follow indistinctly admitted this last year, and evitably that the property now belongpromised their aid in carrying out this ing to that corporation would in future much needed reform; so that, without belong to the government by which doubt, ere long-and he hoped before it would be superseded. That would be an the Session was over-this reform would essential part of the scheme, and he rebe carried out. Starting, then, from joiced to find that some of the most intelthis incontrovertible fact that the go-ligent and important members of the City vernment of London had to be created, Corporation not only perceived this, but the question was, what its form should assured him of their most cordial approval be? Now, his proposal was not charac- of such a transfer. The fact was, that terized by any revolutionary daring; he the property which the City had insimply proposed that London should be herited had not been originally intended dealt with exactly as every other im- for the benefit of a small body of perportant town in this country had been sons, living in a restricted area, but for dealt with-namely, that it should be London, the metropolis of the kingdom. formed into one great municipality, It was only by the merest accident that with a corporation constituted on the a check was put upon the original tenusual model. A right hon. Member dency of the City to absorb by degrees of the present Administration had ar- the whole of London. Had that not gued against thus following the pat- been done all Londoners would have tern of municipalities existing else shared in the enjoyment, and have had where; but he (Mr. Buxton) had never a voice in the administration of this great been able to discover any reason, ex- revenue. The coal and wine duties, cept the mere passion for novelty, for which had helped to swell the City purse, departing from the ancient, time-hon- had been gleaned from the whole meoured, and, in most respects, successful tropolis. In fact, at the present time system of self-government which had every inhabitant of the whole metropolis, Mr. Buxton |