the

the employment of spies, he would say that in all times, and under all governments, in ancient or modern times, such persons were ever found necessary, and all the state trials in this country showed that they were founded on the information of such persons, without which it was impossible that conspiracies could be discovered. The house must be aware, that in the civil list act, there was a clause which enabled the secretary of state to employ secret service money, either for detecting combinations abroad or conspiracies at home. Here, then, the principle of employing such persons was recognised by the statute books of the house. In answer to the observations of the noble lord respecting person who had lately given evidence, he could assure him that the person in question never was employed in those transactions as a spy of government. Respecting Oliver, he did not deny that he had been employed, but he was confident he was discouraged from sowing the seeds of disaffection in any way whatever. The statement, however, was an ex-parte one, and ought not to receive full credit on such authority as had been offered. Nothing had been said to invalidate the point that a general rising was intended to take place after the question of a reform in parliament; and the arrangements for it had been made before ever this person had appeared amongst them. The noble lord continued to advert to historical facts to show that when our population was small and the power of the crown great (the times of Richard II.), a mob, headed by a blacksmith, had committed all manner of outrages, and brought the country almost to the brink of ruin. Were he to say that the French revolution was led on by people of consequence, he was

sure he should libel such persons. It was a conspiracy of the mob against the government, and such were always the most atrocious. Such a conspiracy would soon find leaders: and if it was a conspiracy of the lower orders, he would say, so much the worse; for it was not the chiefs that led the people, but the people that led the chiefs. On the whole, he considered the character of the disturbances totally different. from the view taken of it by the noble lord. If they could make Manchester like Moscow, and destroy all the sources of our prosperity-if they could have done so, he would say, they would-they would have done so if they had not been prevented. And if Manchester had assumed a different charac ter since March, it was through the operation of the measures that had been taken. If there was any reason why he called on the house to adopt the measure now, it was because he considered it essential to the preservation of property and morality, and to afford protection against all the anarchy and disorder that would arise from a revolution.

The marquis of Lansdowne considered the measure to rest on grounds entirely new, and going to introduce a new precedent. The house ought not to part with that which was given into their hands to protect. He had endeavoured to satisfy himself how far any consci entious member could reconcile it to his mind to part with the liberties of his country; and as he found that the reports did not show that any connected conspiracy existed, extending its ramifications throughout the country, he saw no reason for the measure in question. The noble marquis proceeded to argue, that opinions were not to be put down by the personal detention of

the

the parties unfortunately concerned in them. With respect to the report, he must speak of it with respect and affection, but he found in it no data that justified him in consenting to this measure. Were those governments with whom such powers exist ed the most free? In the occurrences of the French revolution, the mob had proceeded to action, but the revolution had been brought about by people of influence. After many historical comparisons, the noble marquis argued that the quality of the danger was not such as a measure of this kind was calculated to remove. It was incumbent on every man to array all the virtue and morality in the land against the disaffection, by uniting the majority who were the well disposed, with the few who were disaffected; to appeal to their reason, and to convince them that they had justice to expect so long as they supported the laws, instead of endeavouring to overturn them. We should ask from the people of the whole country the preservation of their laws; and he could not think so low of the sound population of the country, as to suppose it was not capable of crushing any rebellion that might show itself amongst a part of the people of only five counties. The constitution might therefore safely be left to the protection of the laws, which would unite with public liberty the preservation of the public peace.

Lord Grenville, in an elaborate speech, (through which our limits will not enable us to follow him,) strongly defended the measure on the ground of its necessity to protect the liberties of the country, and that invaluable constitution, from which the happiness and prosperity of the country were inseparable. He contended it was the duty of par

liament to rest their final decision on such information as they might receive as to what had actually taken place; and his opinion was, that the facts were such, that proved there existed a conspiracy, for purposes that had frequently been detailed in that house. It had been said, that the prevention of crimes was infinitely better than punishment; and on this very consideration he supported the measure. The noble lord adverted to the excesses committed by the rioters in 1780, and was of opinion that the same outrages might have ensued, if the riot of the 2d of December had not been checked at its commencement, and the turbulent spirit kept down by the preventive measures that were subsequently adopted. He was not bold enough to say, that if these preventive measures were suffered to expire, the same dangers might not recur. He thought the dangers alluded to in the last century beyond all comparison less than those that now existed, and he had no doubt the suspension of the habeas corpus act in 1745 was a wise and necessary measure, any more than he had that it was necessary at the present moment. On the whole, he had abundant reasons, for being satisfied, that it was his duty to give his earnest support to the measure.

Earl Spencer agreed with the noble lords opposite, that the prevention was better than the punishment of crimes; but the measure under consideration did not appear to him calculated to effect either. The experience of the last three months had induced him to alter his opinion as to the efficacy of the measure. Their lordships should consider, in agreeing to the bill, they would prolong arbitrary power in this country.-The principle of the bill he

held

held to be wrong; and he was averse from leaving, for any length of time, an arbitrary power in the hands of men, or at least longer than what was proved to be absolutely necessary. There would be no responsibility, he thought, annexed to this power, for he would venture to foretell, if this bill were passed, a bill of indemnity would in consequence be found necessary. In this view of the case, he should give his negative to the motion.

The duke of Sussex said, that after the numerous able arguments their lordships had heard against the measure, he should beg leave only to submit one additional reflection, which had forciby struck him in a moral point of view. It was this: he had witnessed the effects of arbitrary power upon the subjects of other countries, and he observed that poison and assassination were prevalent amongst them. Here, these dreadful practices were scarcely known. But if the expressions of popular sentiment were suppressed or circumscribed, as it might be by such measures as that under consideration, it was much to be feared, that it would endeavour to find vent some other way. Should this measure pass into a law, it would be his duty to submit to it; but, until it did, he would oppose it in every stage.

The question being then pretty loudly called for, the house divided. Contents Proxies Total

.....

Non-contents

Proxies...

Total

109

81

-190

27

23

50

Majority for the second reading of the bill..........140 On the same day the fourth report of the select committee of finance was laid on the table of the

house of commons. The three preceding reports, relating only to proposed retrenchments, we have not given; but the substance of this we shall insert, as it presents what-in the opinion of the committee-will probably be the future revenue and expenditure of the country:

It embraces a view, 1st, Of the total public income and expenditure for the year ended 5th Jan. 1817; 2d, Of the probable income and expenditure for the years 1817 and 1818 respectively.

The committee state, that the total receipt of public income at the exchequer of Great Britain in 1816 was 65,176,1767.; and of total expenditure issued from the exchequer 70,380,2681,

[This gross sum includes 1,959,0907. applied to the discharge of navy debt, which was thereby reduced from 3,694,8217. at which it stood on the 5th January 1816, to 1,753,7317. its amount on the 5th January 1817; it includes also a sum of 1,267,7821. applied as the sinking fund on unprovided exchequer bills,5 per cents. 1797 paid off, and the debentures paid off.]

There is in the above gross total sums issued and received, an excess of 5,204,0921. of issues beyond the receipts," which would at first sight indicate an increase of debt, though the difference must have been provided for; but this sum being deducted from that proportion of the foregoing issues which has been applied in the discharge of debt, amounting in the whole to 14,602,2387. it will appear that there was a diminution of debt on the 5th Jan. 1817, as compared with the 5th Jan. 1816, of 9,398,1461.; the only circumstance which may in a degree affect the precise accuracy of this result, being the increase or diminution which may have taken

place

place in the balances at the exchequer at the beginning or close of the year.

The committee proceed to a view of the estimated income and expenditure for 1817 and 1818.

"Your committee have, in the first place, been led to consider in what degree the produce, in the last year, of the taxes and duties composing the existing revenue, could with propriety be assumed as the measure of their future annual produce.

"In directing their attention to this essential part of their inquiry, your committee could entertain no doubt as to the general result to which it would necessarily lead. The nature and extent of the distress which has prevailed throughout those classes of the community which constitute the bulk of the population, were too strongly impressed upon the minds of your committee to admit of the supposition, that under such circumstances the revenue could have been productive in an ordinary degree. It is obvious to reason, as well as consistent with all former experience, that the revenue derived from articles of the most general consumption, must be injured by the calamity of a deficient harvest; and when the committee considered that the distress proceeding from this cause had followed immediately that rapid fall of prices by which the agriculture of the kingdom had been so greatly depressed, and had come in conjunction with the effect produced upon the commerce and manufacturing industry of the country, by the sudden changes which had occurred in the political state of Europe; they were fully prepared to find a very considerable deficiency in the produce of the principal taxes in the year ended the 5th January 1817;

and the more especially as all these causes of distress appeared to have been felt by most of the nations of the continent in a similar, and by many of them in a severer degree.

"The fact has, indeed, corresponded with the principles upon which this expectation was founded. But although these concurring evils have not failed to produce, in a material degree, their natural consequences, yet your committee, in 'contemplating the utmost extent of them, and in comparing them with the depression which the revenue has experienced in former instances, when affected by the single calamity of a deficient harvest, are disposed to consider it as a striking proof of the substantial strength and wealth of the country, that its consumption should not have been diminished in a greater degree under the accumulated circumstances of embarrassment which have pressed upon the last year.

"Your committee are well aware, that in addition to the general causes affecting the usual consumption of taxed commodities in the year 1816, some part of the diminution of the revenue must be attributed to the diminished consumption of the government itself. But, in opposition to this circumstance, they consider that the cessation of so large a portion of the taxes (viz. 17,500,000Z. per annum) as expired in the last year, although their collection continued to operate during the remainder of that year, cannot fail, when the full benefit of the addition thereby made to the means of individuals is generally felt, to encourage an increased expenditure and consumption by the community at large; a consideration which is to be set against any inference to be drawn from the necessary diminution in the

demands

demands and consumption of go

vernment.

"Your committee being therefore fully impressed with the belief, that the unfavourable returns of the revenue in the year 1816 are essentially referable to the general distresses of the country, are necessarily led to the conclusion, that according as these distresses may be removed by the recovery of trade and agriculture, from the shock occasioned by the sudden change in the money value of commodities, and in proportion as the industry of the labouring classes may receive relief from more extended or more productive employment, coupled with the blessing of a more favourable season than the last ;-in the same proportion and degree may it be confidently expected that the public revenue of the country will return to its average rate of productiveness.

"Of the degree in which some melioration may already have taken place, and of the period within which a full recovery from our late difficulties may be anticipated, it would be premature, and perhaps presumptuous, in your committee to attempt to state any distinct opinion. They have, however, thought it right to call for such information as could be acquired upon this very important point, from some of the persons most conversant, practically, with the manufacturing and commercial industry of the country; and the opinions of these persons as to the actual commencement, or the early prospect of returning activity are, upon the whole, encouraging and satisfactory. Your commitee feel warranted, by the concurring sentiments of these witnesses, as well as by all other indications within their own observation, in expressing a belief, that a favourable alteration

is already manifesting itself throughout the country. And when your committee contemplate the great advantages possessed by this nation over all those which have suffered and are still suffering by the calamities peculiar to the present period in the substantial resources of accumulated wealth, and of solid and extensive establishments for the employment of labour and the maintenance of industry-they cannot but indulge the most confident hope that a melioration once begun will be rapidly accelerated. They therefore conceive that they shall not be exhibiting a too favourable view of the future revenue from the present taxes, when they assume the average productiveness of the last two years (corresponding, nearly, as they have already shown, with the average of the three preceding years), as the foundation of their estimate.

The committee estimate the future produce of the public income at £52,505,364

And the expenditure

for 1817 at
for 1818 at

....67,817,752 ..65,216,675

"The probable average income in the years 1817 and 1818, is 52,505,3641. which being deducted from the estimated totals of the expenditure in each of those years, it would appear that there would remain to be provided by extraordi. nary resources, to make good the difference between the total income and expenditure, in the year 1817, 15,312,3881.; and in the year 1818, 12,711,311, independently of any addition to the annual charge, by reason of new debts which may be created in either of those years.

"To this statement your committee have to add, that in the former of these years the sums to be applied (forming part of the